100nl: Two 4bet shoves with AQ

crunchi · #1 11-16-2007, 08:48 PM

This 4 bet shove is against a reg. He is running at about 29/17 over about 250 hands and he has 3bet me like 3 to 4 times this session. Overall i have his LP 3bets at 17%

So I'm pretty sure my AQ is the best hand here and i decide to just shove. Not sure if this is the correct play though because i dont think he will ever call with worse. Thoughts? 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (5 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($61.85)
BB ($195.30)
UTG ($66.90)
Hero ($123.00)
Button ($146.50)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to $4, Button raises to $14, 2 folds, Hero raises to $123


Ok, this next hand is against a seemingly loose/maniacal player. I have only been at the table for like 15 hands or so, but hes been calling/raising a lot PF. No idea how he got his huge stack because it was already this big when i sat down.

Anyway, in the previous hand maniac opened for $2 in EP with Q7 , I 3bet him with AJ on the BTN, he naturally calls. I cant remember the post flop action very well but i won a small pot at showdown.

Thoughts on my 4bet shove here? This is the first time he has 3bet.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($109)
CO ($75.20)
Button ($102.25)
SB ($100.50)
BB ($380.50)
UTG ($100.75)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to $4, CO calls $4, 2 folds, BB raises to $18, Hero raises to $109, CO folds, BB

Imrahil · #2 11-16-2007, 08:49 PM

Fold AQ to 3bets because people always [censored] have it.

nazahl · #3 11-16-2007, 08:56 PM

if you really think he's getting out of line just 4bet smaller/call a shove.

crunny · #4 11-16-2007, 09:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if you really think he's getting out of line just 4bet smaller/call a shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whats the advantage of 4bet small/call shove to just 4bet shoving???

nazahl · #5 11-16-2007, 09:13 PM

you have a hand that you feel is well ahead of his 3betting range. but u really dont wanna be just flatting AQ here since you'll be looking at a cbet like 95% of the time and cant really continue very comfortably most times. so you 4bet b/c basically you want to take down the pot preflop and send him a message that he cant just 3bet you w/ any two cards.

now, if you 4bet shove his calling range is way ahead of yours. probably something like JJ+, AK so you're in bad shape if you get it in preflop, he folds everything else usually. now, that same everything else usually folds to a smaller 4bet just the same as it does a shove so it makes your play way less expensive.

just make sure you call the shove if it comes your way since you'll be getting about 2 to 1 and you're in good shape against that range (roughly the same range for his calling a 4bet shove) getting 2 to 1 to call profitably and gamble it up.

---
616,429,440 games 0.031 secs 19,884,820,645 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 28.151% 27.02% 01.14% 166534536 6998250.00 { AQo }
Hand 1: 71.849% 70.71% 01.14% 435898404 6998250.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

---

crunchi · #6 11-16-2007, 09:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you have a hand that you feel is well ahead of his 3betting range. but u really dont wanna be just flatting AQ here since you'll be looking at a cbet like 95% of the time and cant really continue very comfortably most times. so you 4bet b/c basically you want to take down the pot preflop and send him a message that he cant just 3bet you w/ any two cards.

now, if you 4bet shove his calling range is way ahead of yours. probably something like JJ+, AK so you're in bad shape if you get it in preflop, he folds everything else usually. now, that same everything else usually folds to a smaller 4bet just the same as it does a shove so it makes your play way less expensive.

just make sure you call the shove if it comes your way since you'll be getting about 2 to 1 and you're in good shape against that range (roughly the same range for his calling a 4bet shove) getting 2 to 1 to call profitably and gamble it up.

---
616,429,440 games 0.031 secs 19,884,820,645 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 28.151% 27.02% 01.14% 166534536 6998250.00 { AQo }
Hand 1: 71.849% 70.71% 01.14% 435898404 6998250.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

---

[/ QUOTE ]

Nazahl,

This doesnt make much sense to me. If villain is calling a 4bet shove with the same range he is 5bet shoving (a valid assumption IMO) then there is no benefit to 4betting small because we lose the same when he shoves and we win the same when he folds.

I think 4betting small has an advantage when

1. We plan on folding to a shove with a hand like 54s
2. We have a very strong hand (AA,KK) and think he is likely to call a little lighter. e.g. maybe he will call with TT instead of folding it to a shove.

nazahl · #7 11-16-2007, 10:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Nazahl,
we win the same when he folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

the benefit to 4betting small. think about it like this...

you open AQ otb, sb 3bets you AGAIN

you think he's tryin to run you over and figure his range is something like

any pp, ATs+, AJo, KJs+, KQo, and some randoms like J9s or 87s. we'll put this into 2 categories... the premium (JJ+,AK) and the crap (everything else)

you decide you'd rather not take a flop w/ AQ and have to fold to a cbet (you could and then just jam over his cbet but thats for another thread) and you feel like you have to take a stand against him so he doesnt get the impression that he can run you over. also, [censored] it you'd like to just take this down preflop and to do so you need some fold equity. so you decide to 4bet.

if you shove, he calls w/the premium - JJ+, AK and folds all the crap. maximum fold equity vs. crap for maximum cost

if you 4bet to like $31, he folds all the crap and shoves the premium. relatively same fold equity vs. the crap at a huge discount

the money is still going in against the same range but you ulitize your fold equity better against his weaker range of hands. its about managing cost effectiveness of the play to utilize fold equity.

BCage · #8 11-16-2007, 10:33 PM

That doesn't really make sense. If you're never folding to a shove it makes no difference how big you 4-bet. If you 4-bet smaller and he always folds crap then who cares how big you 4-bet, you win anyway.

crunchi · #9 11-16-2007, 10:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nazahl,
we win the same when he folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

the benefit to 4betting small. think about it like this...

you open AQ otb, sb 3bets you AGAIN

you think he's tryin to run you over and figure his range is something like

any pp, ATs+, AJo, KJs+, KQo, and some randoms like J9s or 87s. we'll put this into 2 categories... the premium (JJ+,AK) and the crap (everything else)

you decide you'd rather not take a flop w/ AQ and have to fold to a cbet (you could and then just jam over his cbet but thats for another thread) and you feel like you have to take a stand against him so he doesnt get the impression that he can run you over. also, [censored] it you'd like to just take this down preflop and to do so you need some fold equity. so you decide to 4bet.

if you shove, he calls w/the premium - JJ+, AK and folds all the crap. maximum fold equity vs. crap for maximum cost

if you 4bet to like $31, he folds all the crap and shoves the premium. relatively same fold equity vs. the crap at a huge discount

the money is still going in against the same range but you ulitize your fold equity better against his weaker range of hands. its about managing cost effectiveness of the play to utilize fold equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you are saying but fail to see how this translates into $$$$

Assume we 4bet shove.
20% of the time he calls for -EV45 (im pulling these numbers outta my arse)
80% of the time he folds for +EV 14

=-9+11
=$2

Assume we min 4bet

20% of the time he 5bet shoves for -EV45 (we always call remember)
80% of the time he folds for +EV14

=-9+11
=$2

tagWAG · #10 11-16-2007, 11:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nazahl,
we win the same when he folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

the benefit to 4betting small. think about it like this...

you open AQ otb, sb 3bets you AGAIN

you think he's tryin to run you over and figure his range is something like

any pp, ATs+, AJo, KJs+, KQo, and some randoms like J9s or 87s. we'll put this into 2 categories... the premium (JJ+,AK) and the crap (everything else)

you decide you'd rather not take a flop w/ AQ and have to fold to a cbet (you could and then just jam over his cbet but thats for another thread) and you feel like you have to take a stand against him so he doesnt get the impression that he can run you over. also, [censored] it you'd like to just take this down preflop and to do so you need some fold equity. so you decide to 4bet.

if you shove, he calls w/the premium - JJ+, AK and folds all the crap. maximum fold equity vs. crap for maximum cost

if you 4bet to like $31, he folds all the crap and shoves the premium. relatively same fold equity vs. the crap at a huge discount

the money is still going in against the same range but you ulitize your fold equity better against his weaker range of hands. its about managing cost effectiveness of the play to utilize fold equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

naz, you are levelling us right?