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  #51  
Old 11-14-2007, 11:48 PM
TheActionKid TheActionKid is offline
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Default Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?

I would never fold AK to bigjoe here if he shoves into me. I know that he knows that im not gonna call with AA KK QQ etc... and therefore he WILL push ATC here and AK will have him beat almost every time.

-TheActionKid
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  #52  
Old 11-14-2007, 11:53 PM
kleath kleath is offline
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Default Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?

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Obv... he hates money .

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and i hate him.

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Its pretty hard not to really
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  #53  
Old 11-15-2007, 12:04 AM
Apathy Apathy is offline
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Default Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?

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Seems to me he's just pissed off that he had your range wrong. And that cost him more than $100.

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this was my prediction before opening the thread.. that and he is obviously just trying to get you to fold more next time.
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  #54  
Old 11-15-2007, 12:11 AM
kleath kleath is offline
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Default Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?

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Seems to me he's just pissed off that he had your range wrong. And that cost him more than $100.

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this was my prediction before opening the thread.. that and he is obviously just trying to get you to fold more next time.

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pretty sure he actually berates regs when they do make bad calls too, which I guess makes it pretty sick metagame, you never actually know what joe thinks about your play!
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  #55  
Old 11-15-2007, 12:34 AM
rakemeplz rakemeplz is offline
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Default Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?

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i think all of these neg ev calls between regulars is pretty silly on the bubble. all it really does is transfer equity from the two of you to the two other players (assuming they are not winning regulars).

i would just make sure i push ATC (or 90%) into joe every time. if he is not making neg ev calls than you should not either.

now, if you catch joe making neg ev calls vs you on the bubble then you should return the favor.

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I made a post about this several months ago (see here).

I'm still hoping the multiway NE calculator guy tries out the suggestion I made about computing "unspitable" pushes (see here).

If you view all the SNGs you play as "one big game" and don't just consider each decison/SNG in isolation, then I wonder if the "true" nash equilibrium might be both a mixture of playing to maximise your own EV for the current situation/SNG and also spite calling appropriately to reduce opponent's future +EV plays against you in future SNGs.

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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The pseudonash game theory calc assume that a -0.0001 call is bad even though doing it will cause him to fold more hands to you in certain spots. Spite calling is obviously +ev if he adjusts his pushing ranges tighter to only +ev hands, thus gaining you more walks or even less pushes from late position etc. I think..
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  #56  
Old 11-15-2007, 09:00 AM
billybeartku billybeartku is offline
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Default Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?

I don't like your call, you almost guaranteed to be in the money why risk ur big stack with just an unpaired card? you know your AK is only 2 to 1 fav. against ATC? I don't even call there with QQ. I only call w/ AA and KK. That's a really bad, -EV call imo.
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  #57  
Old 11-15-2007, 09:05 AM
JDalla JDalla is offline
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Default Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?

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I don't like your call, you almost guaranteed to be in the money why risk ur big stack with just an unpaired card? you know your AK is only 2 to 1 fav. against ATC? I don't even call there with QQ. I only call w/ AA and KK. That's a really bad, -EV call imo.

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If you look at the math, the call is -70 cents of equity, plus a loss of about half of my future edge on the 2 weak players.

For him it's a loss of about $300 when I call, making it much worse for him, meaning in the future he should not push as wide. I think it's overall (not in a vaccume) +ev call and I plan on continuing to make it.
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  #58  
Old 11-15-2007, 09:19 AM
eurythmech eurythmech is offline
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Default Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?

Folding queens, wtf?
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  #59  
Old 11-15-2007, 09:53 AM
BlueSmurf BlueSmurf is offline
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Default Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?

Two probably stupid newb questions:

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I would never fold AK to bigjoe here if he shoves into me. I know that he knows that im not gonna call with AA KK QQ etc... and therefore he WILL push ATC here and AK will have him beat almost every time

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I can not make sense of this. He knows you don't call with even aces, kings or queens, so he pushes everything and therefore you call with AKo. Presumably, you call with better hands as well, so how can he know you don't call when you do call? It smells like very circular logic to me.

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I'm willing to sacriface $37.68 equity to cost Joe $341.5, because in the future it will be correct for him not to push as light. If in the future he folds his J6 in this spot I either get a walk, or call a short stacks push, with the same 60/40 edge, a result which will probably raise my equity by more than the $37.68 I lost in this game.

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Is the equity Joe loses incorporated into yours? If it is, you give up $38 to transfer equity from Joe to the other two guys, and then it seems odd to state that you spend $38 to give him a $341 equity loss, because you don't benefit anyway. You just move the equity around (unless you figure it's x% of that loss worth to you to not have the $341 in the hands of Joe but the other players who are weaker). If you do get a part of his equity loss, then your call shouldn't show negative expectations at all, should it?

If the above is the most drunken nonsense you ever heard, can someone very briefly explain why?

Thanks in advance,

Smurf
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  #60  
Old 11-15-2007, 10:28 AM
BHokie1 BHokie1 is offline
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Default Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?

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If he was in the SB I'd snap call because you'll be subject to him pushing relentlessly the next few hands. Since you are on his right you'll be able to shove in front of him on the next 3 hands.

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The math of the call is pretty straight forward and honestly kind of boring.

If you want to think outside of ICM math and look at how the bubble plays out, DD hit on it right here.

If you are looking to make a metagame call - Pudge hit on it with the fold AK - call with something like T9.
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