putting together a reasonable system for 3bet pots

[djj6835]

SB has some sort of pp, hopefully not 77. Against this villain I would strongly consider betting again on the turn. I think tightesh regs are going to really tighten up deep and I would expect him to fold something like 88 pretty often to a second barrel.

[DaycareInferno]

utg is 38/12/2 megadonk
CO is 20/17/2.5 reg with f3b of 58 (small 3b sample)datamined
hero and villain haven't played on the same tables much

Full Tilt Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

UTG: $71.55
MP: $74
CO: $101
BTN: $107.25
SB: $169.65
Hero (BB): $140.95

Pre-Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG calls $1, MP folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $4.50</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $16</font>, UTG folds, CO calls $11.50

Flop: ($33.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)

is a cbet profitable for hero?

[ikestoys]

why don't you just call and bring UTG along?

[Wolfram]

I have similar problems playing in 3bets pots. My solution is to stop 3betting people OOP unless they have a high fold to 3bet % (or if I'm doing it purely for value with QQ+, AK)

It's just so much easier to play 3bet pots in position than out. The size of the pot decreases your options so much that position becomes even more valuable than in unraised or single-raised pots.

[markuisis]

Ur defending blinds waay to much IMO, the hands ur defending ur blinds with r usually going to hit the board marginally and therefore a lot of ur actions r gonna depend on ur opponent's tendencies, without good post-flop reads or the read that ur opponent almost never calls 3bets - i think u r getting urself into tough spots uselessly.

[sh58]

you start saying you want a framework and then you post a bunch of random hands. lets get back to the point.

i think 3bet pots are very dynamic in that your opponents range and how they are gonna play 3bet pots are vastlt dependant on your image, and if they are good, their percieved image.

alot of the work in making 3bet pots easier to play are solved PF, and every time you 3bet you should have a plan about how you are gonna play the hand postflop.

some things to keep in mind is to avoid 3betting too much OOP. your range 3betting OOP should be fairly tight, with a few random extras thrown in to make you harder to read.

are you asking for a how to play 3bet pots against unknowns assuming you aren't making a move PF? that would make more sense imo

[Igloo9]

a great tip I got from cts video on 3 bet pots: cbet less $. for example, if you three bet from bb against btn, and have air and pot is $33, cbet $22 instead of $28. has same result with less risk.

oh, and three bet less oop.

[DaycareInferno]

i am not the hero in all of those examples. some of it is a bit constructed. i defend my blinds with 3bets at a much lower than average frequency. its very rare that i would run a fish out of a 3way pot with 22-66 type things.

for the most part, my 3betting ranges are very tight, especially oop. sometimes, due to my image and other players involved though, 3betting with atc is so obviously profitable that i will do it with any sort of a hand purely for pf FE. should i actually see a flop, then i have to determine if its profitable to take another course other than just giving up, which is sometimes kind of hard to determine.

as far as bet sizing goes, i'm not really sure how i feel about it. i know its popular to go with smaller bets in inflated pots, but when you're oop, sometimes its tempting not to, just because of stack sizes.

for instance, without getting into too much detail lets say that i 3bet a CO raiser from the BB and get called. when the flop comes out, my range could be roughly separated into 3 categories:

a)high showdown value - i want to get all my money in with this hand

b)marginal showdown value - how i proceed with this hand depends on a lot of different things

c)low showdown value - i probably won't win without bluffing

obviously i will have low or marginal showdown value much more often than i will have high showdown value. if there is $30 in the pot, and i bet $20-$22, villain may figure it profitable to shove over my bet on a high percentage of boards so long as he is at least slightly live. if i bet $30-$35, villain may figure that i can only fold a hopeless hand at that point, preventing him from making the steal. this would increase pots won without showdown when betting with low showdown value hands (or at least the portion of those hands that would be bet for balance), while hurting value gained from high showdown value hands and committing your stack with a lot of marginal showdown value hands.

[tagWAG]

[ QUOTE ]


...The size of the pot decreases your options so much that position becomes even more valuable than in unraised or single-raised pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wolfram

It's true that position is more valuable in 3 bet pots (assuming 100 bb stacks), but this is NOT because your options are decreased.

The greater the size of the pot, yes the greater the absolute value of position. But the greater the size of the pot relative to the eff stacks, the less valuable position is. This is because as (eff stacks/ pot size) decreases, so the importance of implied odds and position goes down.

That's why many people correctly prefer to make larger size 3 bets oop than ip.

[Paul Thomson]

CREATING A SYSTEM

1) Put Villain on a range preflop.

2) Discover how often Villain has to fold in order for 3-betting to be profitable. (don't forget the times he 4-bets)

3) If called. How often does he have to fold to a continuation bet.
3b) Given Villain's preflop calling range, how often can he proceed on various boards.

4) How should Hero react to various action taken by Villain.

Rinse and repeat.