NL50 - AA facing 4Bet All-in

[Johnes Benjamin]

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Therein lies the problem - I really didn't have much of a plan (ok, I had no plan whatsoever). I really need to work on formulating a plan of action based on my reads and villain's actions. When villain raised me to 9, I felt like it was a bet to knock me off AK/AQ type of hands (but honestly, don't know why I felt that, or if I should have felt that).

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Ask yourself this question: If you feel he's often trying to knock you off of AK/AQ, that means he doesn't have a hand better than 1 weak pair, right? So, why do you want to reraise to knock these weak hands out? AA is way ahead of all these hands, and they are much less likely to put more money in when you 3-bet.

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This is a good point.

It seems like you are afraid of having to call multiple bets when you might be beat, but you have to look at the hand as a whole.
If he actually is bluffing then there is no reason to raise and fold when you could call (at least until river) and end up committing the same amount of money. This is assuming he can fire every street with a hand that you beat, which isn't happening very often anyway. Usually you will be able to show it down, and if he fires again on river you will usually be beat.

As for your question about shoving to put him to a decision, shoving for this reason is terrible. If it was correct to stack off with AA here always, ie he's a super aggrodonk who commits with anypair, then how could shoving to "put him to a decision" possibly be better than raising and calling a shove? There is no logic. If you are committing your chips, you might as well do so by inducing a shove from him than by shoving into him.
Almost every player has a wider range of hands they will shove over the top with than hands they will call a shove with, so if you are committing (not that I condone stacking off here) then why narrow his range of hands that get it in with you?
Shoving is indicative of trying to take as much decision-making as possible out of the equation.

[niteswmer]

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Ask yourself this question: If you feel he's often trying to knock you off of AK/AQ, that means he doesn't have a hand better than 1 weak pair, right? So, why do you want to reraise to knock these weak hands out? AA is way ahead of all these hands, and they are much less likely to put more money in when you 3-bet.

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This is a good point.

It seems like you are afraid of having to call multiple bets when you might be beat, but you have to look at the hand as a whole.
If he actually is bluffing then there is no reason to raise and fold when you could call (at least until river) and end up committing the same amount of money. This is assuming he can fire every street with a hand that you beat, which isn't happening very often anyway. Usually you will be able to show it down, and if he fires again on river you will usually be beat.

As for your question about shoving to put him to a decision, shoving for this reason is terrible. If it was correct to stack off with AA here always, ie he's a super aggrodonk who commits with anypair, then how could shoving to "put him to a decision" possibly be better than raising and calling a shove? There is no logic. If you are committing your chips, you might as well do so by inducing a shove from him than by shoving into him.
Almost every player has a wider range of hands they will shove over the top with than hands they will call a shove with, so if you are committing (not that I condone stacking off here) then why narrow his range of hands that get it in with you?
Shoving is indicative of trying to take as much decision-making as possible out of the equation.

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Thanks for the responses! Looks like I'm looking at things bass-akwards. I've played so many hands without thinking things through that now that I am actually trying to think things through I've confused myself. Getting all these responses will hopefully help me think straight!

[FireStorm]

Don't 3 bet with the intention of folding.

As played, you might have to call given the odds, but then again you are obviously crushed here, so a fold is possible. Unless this guy has specifcally JJ and thinks big overpair = the nuts, this isn't a one pair hand when he C/R's and then 4 bets all in.

[AlexB182]

Even though he seems to be rather loose, he will not 4 bet /shove with only an overpair like QQ and JJ and I guess he would've raised KK PF. And I also think that calling the first raise and "trying to see a cheap showdown" here isn't the best way either. Problem is: when you call the raise to 9$, there are already 22 $ in the pot on the flop. With a set or a made straight he won't stop betting and he will get the last of his bucks in on the river. Will you be able to fold then when the pot is laying like at least 4 to 1 odds?
If you think that he is capable of making a move here with a weaker overpair then stick it in now, if you don't think so lay it down now.

P.S.: I think converter messed something up, or why can BB start the hand with 60.40$ and then push on the flop for 67.65$ ?