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  #11  
Old 08-29-2006, 02:39 PM
Hoi Polloi Hoi Polloi is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 - AA - turn pairs Q; ABC player donks

[ QUOTE ]
The correct question here instead would be... 'what are the chances that he is not holding a Q?'

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Fair enough. Based on my read, I thought the chances were small. But this is may be an argument about general strategy vs. the read I made at the time. If so, it's rather pointless.

In your view, is there no read that would make this fold correct?
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  #12  
Old 08-29-2006, 02:42 PM
Hoi Polloi Hoi Polloi is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 - AA - turn pairs Q; ABC player donks

[ QUOTE ]
After reading a few of your posts today, please post your WTSD and W$SD. you fold way, way too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll double check but at 6-max they're about 45/54.
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  #13  
Old 08-29-2006, 02:44 PM
WillyT WillyT is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 - AA - turn pairs Q; ABC player donks

45??? holy crap. what are your preflop stats then?
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  #14  
Old 08-29-2006, 02:51 PM
danzasmack danzasmack is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 - AA - turn pairs Q; ABC player donks

yeah makes no sense, esp. with your K2 post
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  #15  
Old 08-29-2006, 03:14 PM
Ray Of Light Ray Of Light is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 - AA - turn pairs Q; ABC player donks

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The correct question here instead would be... 'what are the chances that he is not holding a Q?'

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. Based on my read, I thought the chances were small. But this is may be an argument about general strategy vs. the read I made at the time. If so, it's rather pointless.

In your view, is there no read that would make this fold correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, not really. Maybe if he had a very low WTS %... maybe.

But for me, the greater the likelihood that he holds the trip queens, the more aggressive I would be. Let me explain. Even if he is, as you say, a cautiously passive player on the turn; I would instead prefer to raise his bet on the turn, (and fold to a 3bet or river donk bet).

I simply wouldn't be able to find it in me to fold this turn. Him betting out has made it an easy call down for me, at the very least. Now if I was facing a check raise from a cautious player, that is what would give me pause for thought...
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  #16  
Old 08-29-2006, 03:38 PM
Hoi Polloi Hoi Polloi is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 - AA - turn pairs Q; ABC player donks

[ QUOTE ]
yeah makes no sense, esp. with your K2 post

[/ QUOTE ]

It does seem high. As I said, I'll have to double check.

What's interesting to me in this thread is the fact that as almost always I've provided a fairly detailed read on my opponent and yet no one seems to be interested in factoring that into their appraisal.

Everyone always asks for reads but then don't seem to take them into account. As if the game, especially SH, is just a mechanical excercise and departing from those mechanical rules is -EV. My experience strongly suggests this is not the case.

That said, I call down with a lot VERY marginal hands when I think my reads suggest it is profitable or for meta-game/image reasons.

Edit; added below.

It's one of the reasons I've found posting hands in the mid-stakes forum to be much less helpful than it was to me in the small stakes forum. Reads/hand reading becomes so much more important to success and there is little appreciation for it in my experience.

Enough bitching.
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  #17  
Old 08-29-2006, 03:40 PM
Rubeskies Rubeskies is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 - AA - turn pairs Q; ABC player donks

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nope

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, bad fold; or Nope, no thoughts, good fold; or Nope, no thoughts--full stop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for the blunt reply but I was trying to express how bad the fold was.

Basically you can't fold here for many reasons.

1.) First and foremost, the pot is now 9BBs after his bet. So, assuming he bets the river, you only have to be correct to call this down 1 in 5. (2BBs to win 10).

His hand range is still much wider than you think. I've seen players meeting this description betting almost any pocket pair in this situation including a slowplayed KK. I see them make this move all the time with middling pairs they are too scared to play hard on the flop or before the flop like 77 and even JJ. I've also seen this done with AK believe it or not. It isn't a move, he just thinks he's ahead.

It also could be a missed hand. You said it yourself that you've folded hands you've raised preflop. The turn donk is the most common "bluff" from a player like this. This is online 10/20, even this sort of player donk bluffs from time to time on a scare card.

2) If you start folding in these situations with your good hands, it means you are with your A high hands as well and people, maybe not him, but other players are going to take notice and start taking shots at you. Folding here, even if it is even EV, or slightly -EV (which it isn't) might still be bad for metagame purposes.

And dude, if your WTSD is 45, WTF man. Mine is 38 and I think this fold is bad. Are you like a 19/14/1.5 type dude?
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  #18  
Old 08-29-2006, 03:55 PM
danzasmack danzasmack is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 - AA - turn pairs Q; ABC player donks

Hoi,

Your original post basically asks - "when a solid, passive player donks this turn should I be folding AA"

2+2 answer = NO

Then you add that basically your read is that he has a Q too often for this to be a call down (if this is false then you should not be defending your fold). Then, this post is no value added. i have a played a lot of hands where if i posted them they would be frowned upon but "i had a read" and i called with Q hi, or I bluff c.r'd a river. That's my read. I have 100% confidence in it. So why post the hand?

If you didn't know what to do in this hand, then you wouldn't have the read you had. In a sense, this post is you saying "i am good at poker". I know that sounds derogatory (spelling) but it's not in any way. I'm just trying to explain why the forum has reacted to your post the way it did.
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  #19  
Old 08-29-2006, 03:59 PM
Hoi Polloi Hoi Polloi is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 - AA - turn pairs Q; ABC player donks

[ QUOTE ]
Basically you can't fold here for many reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but can you fold here for any reasons? I think mine, based on my read of this player, was correct. Now, I may have been mistaken but I think reads are really important as you move up in stakes and I've found mine to be really valuable for the most part. I'm not afraid I'll occasionally fold the better hand as I may have done here if I'm able to get value from marginal hands and fold strong second best hands effectively.

[ QUOTE ]
His hand range is still much wider than you think. I've seen players meeting this description betting almost any pocket pair in this situation including a slowplayed KK. I see them make this move all the time with middling pairs they are too scared to play hard on the flop or before the flop like 77 and even JJ. I've also seen this done with AK believe it or not. It isn't a move, he just thinks he's ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have too. But that's just not this guy, IMO. I called down with 55 the other day and could only beat bottom pair which is what my opponent was holding. I'm not a fold monkey.


[ QUOTE ]
2) If you start folding in these situations with your good hands, it means you are with your A high hands as well...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you mean by "these situations" those where I have a strong read that says I'm behind and drawing very thin then yes I'm going to lay them down. Wouldn't you?

[ QUOTE ]
2) If you start folding in these situations with your good hands, it means you are with your A high hands as well and people, maybe not him, but other players are going to take notice and start taking shots at you. Folding here, even if it is even EV, or slightly -EV (which it isn't) might still be bad for metagame purposes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I welcome this. I go to showdown a lot, I play strong hands strongly so I'm more than happy for an opponent to think I'm a push over. I understand what my image is and how this play may effect that, and I'm quite capable of compensating for it. My reads of my opponents are important and my understanding of my opponents' reads on me are important. I want to keep my opponents off balance. Don't you?

[ QUOTE ]
And dude, if your WTSD is 45, WTF man. Mine is 38 and I think this fold is bad. Are you like a 19/14/1.5 type dude?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to double check the WTSD. 45 seems high. I'm about 28/20/2.5, I think. But I don't follow that stuff too closely.

As I said in another post, it is interesting that no one seems very interested in the read I provided even though many complain when a poster does not provide one. Do you think this hand simply must be taken to show down regardless of read? If not, what would you need to know about a player in order to release this hand in this situation?
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  #20  
Old 08-29-2006, 04:34 PM
Ray Of Light Ray Of Light is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 - AA - turn pairs Q; ABC player donks

[ QUOTE ]

As I said in another post, it is interesting that no one seems very interested in the read I provided even though many complain when a poster does not provide one. Do you think this hand simply must be taken to show down regardless of read? If not, what would you need to know about a player in order to release this hand in this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]


In my opinion, there is no player read that would make this a good fold.

This is because your decision on the turn, in a pot this big, isn't whether or not you should call or fold. Your decision here is whether or not you should call or raise.

This is probably why no reply to this thread has bothered too much with a player read, because the fold in this hand was a poor decision. A player read doesn't change that.
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