shorthanded vs full ring

[stinkypete]

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I went back into PT and looked at some numbers and here is what I came up with

Here are my stats on the year. 150K sample

3 handed

VPIP button 44.69 PFR 44.65

4 handed

VPIP OTB 32.70 PFR 32.29

5 handed

VPIP OTB 27.17 PFR 26.47

6 handed

VPIP button 23 PFR 21.79

9-10 Handed

VPIP button 19.29 PFR 17.68

Note: sample is skewed towards short handed play so the accuracy of my 9-10 handed numbers is questionable due to small sample size.

Are my opening standards any different on the button 3 handed any different then when it is folded to me OTB 10 handed? Nope, not at all. However at first glance it would appear that way.

But this "loosening up" is naturally occuring due to changing game conditions. 3 handed it is always folded to me OTB whereas 6 or 10 handed there might be a limpers and raises in front of my so my range will be "tighter" so to speak.

Also I think it is interesting that the largest jump in VPIP occurs from 3 to 4 handed. Anyone have any comments on this?

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these numbers are not relevant to this discussion. what you want to look at is your stats when its folded to you. the "attempt to steal" stat on teh button would work.

[DpR]

Is this that hard to check? Just compare you VPIP and PFR short handed vs full when first to enter pot from the button. Seems pretty straight forward.

IMO, you will find people more aggressive in short games. When playing short people probably feel more comfortable in the 1on1 situaitons because they have good read on opponenets, thus they are more likely to enter into such confronatations.

[Justin A]

To add on to what others have said, I think players tend to player tighter/worse from the blinds at a full table, so your late position open raising range should open up more than in a short handed game.

However, there's a lot more to be said for metagame in short handed games, especially 3 and 4 handed. Of course playing that short means preflop play is going to matter much less.

[Subfallen]

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...especially 3 and 4 handed. Of course playing that short means preflop play is going to matter much less.

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I don't see why. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Elaborate plz?

[Justin A]

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...especially 3 and 4 handed. Of course playing that short means preflop play is going to matter much less.

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I don't see why. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Elaborate plz?

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because playing that short everyone is going to be playing marginal hands that are generally not large favorites over their opponents hands, so you have to rely on postflop play more.

It's not like full ring play where you raise with AK and make a ton of money off the guy who cold calls you with KJ. Short handed those type of domination situations come up less often.

[tongni]

This may be just me, but I play tighter 4 handed in the CO than 10 handed a fair amount of the time, because the opportunities for you to steal are much less in full ring, the button or blinds won't really 3bet you as much because it's not as obvious that you are stealing. However, if you are openraising UTG/CO 4 handed, it will become really clear you are opening light and the button of course won't want to give up his positional advantage and start 3betting you a lot, as well as the blinds.

I think the fast and furious pace of 3-4 handed HE can often lead to breakdowns in preflop stragety though. It's really easy to get pissed and then just start open raising 60%.

[ALL1N]

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Gary carson says this is a good start, but if I remember correctly, he goes on to say that you then should loosen up a bit because you pay the blinds more often.

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This bit is pretty ludicrous.

Before taking my image into consideration, I open the same hands. I think I read some bunching analysis a long time ago and it said that the effect is almost negligible.

[Justin A]

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This may be just me, but I play tighter 4 handed in the CO than 10 handed a fair amount of the time, because the opportunities for you to steal are much less in full ring, the button or blinds won't really 3bet you as much because it's not as obvious that you are stealing. However, if you are openraising UTG/CO 4 handed, it will become really clear you are opening light and the button of course won't want to give up his positional advantage and start 3betting you a lot, as well as the blinds.

I think the fast and furious pace of 3-4 handed HE can often lead to breakdowns in preflop stragety though. It's really easy to get pissed and then just start open raising 60%.

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I'm glad you've been posting more often.

What do you think about the differing metagame effects of opening light in a 3 or 4 handed game versus a ten handed game?

[jason_t]

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This may be just me, but I play tighter 4 handed in the CO than 10 handed a fair amount of the time, because the opportunities for you to steal are much less in full ring, the button or blinds won't really 3bet you as much because it's not as obvious that you are stealing. However, if you are openraising UTG/CO 4 handed, it will become really clear you are opening light and the button of course won't want to give up his positional advantage and start 3betting you a lot, as well as the blinds.


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I agree with this. 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is more valuable when folded to you in the CO/otb in a 10-handed game than in a 4-handed game. I tried to post about this in MHUSH a couple of weeks ago but Josh. locked the thread.

[stinkypete]

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Gary carson says this is a good start, but if I remember correctly, he goes on to say that you then should loosen up a bit because you pay the blinds more often.

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since it hasn't been explicitly mentioned yet, it's worth pointing out that gary carson is a tard, whoever he is.