PNL Study Group Day 6: Position/Hand Reading/FIP

[BobboFitos]

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totally TOTALLY agree with this....I was just having a very similar discussion the other day with Cero about just this thing, and the position I took was right in line with your camp....I am writing a section on 3-betting in Volume Two that will hit on all of this - I'm actually in the process right now of trying to get some hardcore math to back up a lot of my intuitions - it's a complicated decision tree though....

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haha dont write too fast sunny PLEASE!!!!! I have alot of stuff on 3betting that I dont want to be obsolete because you beat me to it ;p (having it published)

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One thing I do think needs to be mentioned in this discussion though Bobbo is that there is a difference (even if it's not necessarily enough to change your plan in this particular hand) between a 3-bet pot with 100bb stacks and a 3-bet pot with 200bb stacks - purely due to the ratios.

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agree fully

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thanks again for all the great comments...

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thanks for the great answers

[VoxGibson]

I hope this is the correct place for this, but i'm having an issue with hand #4 on page 88-89, lets say we play as the hand suggests, and the river hits a 9c. Villian then bets the pot. Would we reraise? Villian pushes, would we call? Villian bets, we reraise, he pushes, would we call and pray we don't see KJ, if we do see KJ do we chalk it up to varience, or figure perhaps we should have played differently on the turn? I see alot of advantage to pot control and checking behind that i had never thought of before, however in this particular hand with the check call on the flop, on a draw heavy board with a preflop limper, shouldnt we be charging draws here, or trying to find out where we are in the hand on the turn. Does checking the turn really preserve the most value here? I think i might be missing the point, but i find in this particular hand, if i faced a big bet on the river, i'd feel as though i led myself into this tough decision by not betting the turn. assuming the 9 doesn't hit the river then i would find myself asking questions like this - Did he miss his flush and is trying to buy the pot? I would be less concerned (potientially more annoyed though) buy getting check-raised on the turn, and knowing i'm beat and having to fold, then by facing a big or even moderately large bet on the river and not feeling i've defined his or my hand at all. I may also be forced to fold the best hand because my turn play induced a large bluff. I'm wondering if betting the turn and hoping for a check down on the river may be better?

[Sunny Mehta]

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I hope this is the correct place for this, but i'm having an issue with hand #4 on page 88-89, lets say we play as the hand suggests, and the river hits a 9c. Villian then bets the pot. Would we reraise? Villian pushes, would we call? Villian bets, we reraise, he pushes, would we call and pray we don't see KJ, if we do see KJ do we chalk it up to varience, or figure perhaps we should have played differently on the turn? I see alot of advantage to pot control and checking behind that i had never thought of before, however in this particular hand with the check call on the flop, on a draw heavy board with a preflop limper, shouldnt we be charging draws here, or trying to find out where we are in the hand on the turn. Does checking the turn really preserve the most value here? I think i might be missing the point, but i find in this particular hand, if i faced a big bet on the river, i'd feel as though i led myself into this tough decision by not betting the turn. assuming the 9 doesn't hit the river then i would find myself asking questions like this - Did he miss his flush and is trying to buy the pot? I would be less concerned (potientially more annoyed though) buy getting check-raised on the turn, and knowing i'm beat and having to fold, then by facing a big or even moderately large bet on the river and not feeling i've defined his or my hand at all. I may also be forced to fold the best hand because my turn play induced a large bluff. I'm wondering if betting the turn and hoping for a check down on the river may be better?

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Hi Vox,

I agree with you that if you're playing an opponent who really won't checkraise the turn often with a worse hand, I like betting the turn and folding to a raise.

Thanks for the post,

Sunny

[VoxGibson]

Thanks for the answer, and thanks for the book, its been the most exciting poker book i've read since SSHE (i've read many) I am still curious though if we play the hand as stated in the book, would we call a or reraise a large bet on the river, if we hit a 9 making our straight. Or is this read dependant. (sorry to be hung up on this one particular hand)

[VoxGibson]

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Thanks for the answer, and thanks for the book, its been the most exciting poker book i've read since SSHE (i've read many) I am still curious though if we play the hand as stated in the book, would we call a or reraise a large bet on the river, if we hit a 9 making our straight. Or is this read dependant. (sorry to be hung up on this one particular hand)

[/ QUOTE ]I withdraw the question, and chalk this particular hand up to the "It depends" catagory

[faintinggoat]

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Here is a scenario where I find myself stacking off all too often but especially OOP, and that's hitting trips on a connected flop with multiple players (3+). ,"

I believe trips with weak kicker as compared to sets to be a leak in most players games. I also keep notes to see what trips kicker someone will stack off with.

Flops like this:
K4 flop KK7
A3 flop AAJ

Should be thought of as the same strength as:

KJ flop K72 or A7 flop A93

Compare with
A3 flop 33J
A7 flop 33K

The reason you should look at it this way is because who's going to call you when the flop is KK7?

K* and 77 and a couple of idiots with pocket pair.

Everything then becomes a battle of kickers.

So pot control is huge when hitting trips with a week kicker.

The best way is usually to check the flop and pick someone off when an over card hits on the turn or river.