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  #41  
Old 08-30-2006, 10:43 PM
Hoi Polloi Hoi Polloi is offline
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Default Re: Hoi Polloi\'s highly anticipated stat post

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Uh, mathematically speaking, yes you would rather be winning the same amount of showdowns but be paying less overall to see showdowns.

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Okay, I see how you've framed the problem now. But I also think that someone with a 60% W$SD in aggressive online games would be playing sub-optimatially.

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Any thoughts, Nate, on what the optimal range would be? Also, as you often mention tight/loose image variation, any thoughts how that factor would impact the optimal range?
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  #42  
Old 08-30-2006, 10:54 PM
The Bryce The Bryce is offline
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Default Re: Hoi Polloi\'s highly anticipated stat post

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Any thoughts, Nate, on what the optimal range would be?

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NO! Bad Hoi Polloli! Bad!
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  #43  
Old 08-30-2006, 11:10 PM
Nate tha\\\' Great Nate tha\\\' Great is offline
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Default Re: Hoi Polloi\'s highly anticipated stat post

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Uh, mathematically speaking, yes you would rather be winning the same amount of showdowns but be paying less overall to see showdowns.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I see how you've framed the problem now. But I also think that someone with a 60% W$SD in aggressive online games would be playing sub-optimatially.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any thoughts, Nate, on what the optimal range would be? Also, as you often mention tight/loose image variation, any thoughts how that factor would impact the optimal range?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play at about 40% WtSD, 52% W$SD. Naturally, I think this is fairly close to optimal. Sure, I make some sloppy calldowns here and there, but this style works for me, and has always produced some very nice winrates. I don't strive to achieve any particular numbers when I'm playing. They're just the cumulative result of a series of what I believe to be +EV decisions. (Disclaimer: I'm sure my numbers would look a bit different if I was playing 10/20 or something).

I do think my style tends to be associated with a loose table image. I'm not one of those TAGs that "never gets out of line". I can definitely make some plays when I think I have some folding equity. But this encourages my opponents to make some mistakes when all I'm trying to do is get to showdown with a reasonable hand.
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  #44  
Old 08-31-2006, 12:58 AM
SteveL91 SteveL91 is offline
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Default Re: Hoi Polloi\'s highly anticipated stat post

Is there any chance of getting some screenshots of the position tab in PT?

I've never been one to obsess over stats, and my WTSD has been gradually coming the more I've played. When I first started playing short-handed, I was in the 31-33 range; now I'm basically in the 34-35 range. I feel like I'm making far too many bad calldowns/pay-offs, and I'm having a real hard time grasping what other calldowns/pay-offs I could (dare I say should?) be making.

Thanks,
Steve
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  #45  
Old 08-31-2006, 07:03 AM
TStoneMBD TStoneMBD is offline
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Default Re: Hoi Polloi\'s highly anticipated stat post

i get out of line against people with low wtsd rates as well and i agree thats how people should be adjusting. i think im pretty good at distinguishing whos going to try and exploit my low wtsd and i adjust accordingly and start showing everything down against them. ideally, if im really good at counteradjusting then it should add substantially to my winrate as players start bluffing me too much when it wont work. my w$sd has been 57 which i guess isnt that high for someone with a 32 wtsd.

also, there are a few other reasons why my wtsd is low. for instance, i like to take alot of checkraise the turn checkfold the river lines with hands like ace high or underpairs on dry boards. i also have a tendency to give up continuation bets on the turn and fold to the river bet when i have no showdown value. because of this, i get to the showdown alot less with jack high then others as other people will bet the turn and then check it down or fire 1 more barrel. i usually just concede these hands faster.
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  #46  
Old 08-31-2006, 02:22 PM
mmcd mmcd is offline
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Default Re: Hoi Polloi\'s highly anticipated stat post

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i think im pretty good at distinguishing whos going to try and exploit my low wtsd and i adjust accordingly and start showing everything down against them. ideally, if im really good at counteradjusting then it should add substantially to my winrate as players start bluffing me too much when it wont work.

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In theory then, your WTSD should be slowly creeping up.

I think given the texture of these games anything below 34 or 35 is problematic. If you're folding winners somehwhat often, then you need to make your opponenents fold winners somewhat often just to stay afloat. At some point, your opponents are going to smarten up and stop folding winners.
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  #47  
Old 08-31-2006, 04:01 PM
Hoi Polloi Hoi Polloi is offline
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Default Re: Hoi Polloi\'s highly anticipated stat post

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(Disclaimer: I'm sure my numbers would look a bit different if I was playing 10/20 or something).

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This is an important point. The earlier you're getting it HU the higher your WtSD should be IMHO.

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I can definitely make some plays when I think I have some folding equity. But this encourages my opponents to make some mistakes when all I'm trying to do is get to showdown with a reasonable hand.

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Another good point. Make plays when you have an edge in doing so and realize even if you get looked up future FE will morph into, as it were, SD equity. It's like FE and SDE are inversely related and it's necessary to know where your image is at any particular time.

Thanks, Nate.
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  #48  
Old 08-31-2006, 04:05 PM
Hoi Polloi Hoi Polloi is offline
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Default Re: Hoi Polloi\'s highly anticipated stat post

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i get out of line against people with low wtsd rates as well and i agree thats how people should be adjusting.

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I like the idea of exploiting the opponents' low WtSD stat. I think I've been doing some of that but without pre-meditated reference to that stat.

This is something I'm learning to love about SH play. Your image can turn on a dime and if you're aware of it as it happens there are a lot of ways to exploit it.
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