Muck ruling

Frond · #1 10-08-2007, 04:57 PM

4/8 live LHE game. Guy in the #6 seat calls and puts his 4 chips in the pot but has his cards out in front of him with no chip or anything protecting them like he always has been doing all night. They were in front of him and not too far out away from his stack, kind of a normal spot for most players. Guy on his left in the #7 seat decides to fold and throws his cards in but they both land comingled with # 6's cards. Dealer halts the action and calls the floor over. Tells the floor what happened and the floor rules that both hands are dead and #6 even has to surrender his chips that he called with to the pot. #7 apologized to #6 and gave the guy 4 chips so no problem there. #7 asked the floor if he could whipser his hand to him so that #6 could still play his hand but floor refused. Is this a correct ruling here?

PS. Guy on my left says to me, "Man, I should do what you do and put a chip on your cards on every single hand" I say, "Uh huh"

RR · #2 10-08-2007, 04:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Guy on his left in the #7 seat decides to fold and throws his cards in but they both land comingled with # 6's cards.

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If they are truly comingled the floor is correct. If they are just on top of them going a different direction or something the floor is not correct.

psandman · #3 10-08-2007, 05:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Guy on his left in the #7 seat decides to fold and throws his cards in but they both land comingled with # 6's cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are truly comingled the floor is correct. If they are just on top of them going a different direction or something the floor is not correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have seen a floor person (and you know him RR) have both players whisper their hands and then return the hand to player. I didn't like this because I thought if you do this you really should have the players write their hands down rather than whisper to the floor.

The result was that a nit in the game (not even in the hand) got up and left in a huff and promised to never come back (good riddance).

RR · #4 10-08-2007, 05:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have seen a floor person (and you know him RR) have both players whisper their hands and then return the hand to player. I didn't like this because I thought if you do this you really should have the players write their hands down rather than whisper to the floor.

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I have seen him do that. I also saw him on the floor when a husband threw his cards into his wife's so they were dead without trying to reconstruct them. My only objection to telling me what the cards were (or writing them down) is that is looks bad. Besides in my market they call gaming when there isn't a magical muck because every place else in town looks for reasons to kill hands.

One Outer · #5 10-08-2007, 05:12 PM

If they can tell which cards are which, then the floor should instruct the dealer to retrieve the mucked hand from the live hand and move on. If they don't know what's what then it's a correct ruling.

Rottersod · #6 10-08-2007, 06:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Guy on his left in the #7 seat decides to fold and throws his cards in but they both land comingled with # 6's cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are truly comingled the floor is correct. If they are just on top of them going a different direction or something the floor is not correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have seen a floor person (and you know him RR) have both players whisper their hands and then return the hand to player. I didn't like this because I thought if you do this you really should have the players write their hands down rather than whisper to the floor.

The result was that a nit in the game (not even in the hand) got up and left in a huff and promised to never come back (good riddance).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it better to write them down? So the floor can show the other players after the hand is over?

psandman · #7 10-08-2007, 06:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Guy on his left in the #7 seat decides to fold and throws his cards in but they both land comingled with # 6's cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are truly comingled the floor is correct. If they are just on top of them going a different direction or something the floor is not correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have seen a floor person (and you know him RR) have both players whisper their hands and then return the hand to player. I didn't like this because I thought if you do this you really should have the players write their hands down rather than whisper to the floor.

The result was that a nit in the game (not even in the hand) got up and left in a huff and promised to never come back (good riddance).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it better to write them down? So the floor can show the other players after the hand is over?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, imagine you are a visitor in a room and you see a guy who is obviously a regular, he is friendly with the floor guy, maybe you even see him tip the floor guy. Then this happens and the floor guy comes over and this guy and another regular whsiper to the floor, the floor sorts through the cards and gives the guy back his hand. At the end the player flips over a premium hand (and maybe he didn't raise pre-flop and this happened after the flop).

Might it occur to you that the floor may have helped the player out a bit by upgrading his hand? Maybe you aren't that skepitacal but some people are. At least by having the players write their hands down we take the possibility of the floor mixing and matching.

Or another scenario -- both players say they had an Ace in their hand but they aren't sure of the suit. Not knowing which card is which would be a good reason for the floor to just kill the hands here, but the floor just figures I'll give the guy an ace and he'll never know whether it was the right one or not. Agin writing the hands done provides evidence so that the other players can know that this was on the up and up.

Little Wing · #8 10-08-2007, 07:13 PM

At Harrah's in N.O. if that happens to an unprotected hand both hands are automatically dead whether co-mingled or not, all they have to do is touch.

Jauron · #9 10-08-2007, 09:39 PM

I've seen a dealer accidently grab a players cards when they weren't protected...dead hand.

Screw slowing the game down because a guy can't throw a chip or hold onto them or at least put them in a spot that is not likely to happen in. Bet he only does that once.

Frond · #10 10-09-2007, 02:33 AM

So is it standard for the dealer to take the guys bet who called? His fault for not protecting his cards? They wouldn't just have him take his bet back and surrender his cards?