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#231
11-23-2007, 11:57 AM
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Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
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Then buy it yourself. Or get together with a bunch of people who agree with you and buy it together. Otherwise you're just waving guns around and imposing your personal preferences through violence. It's pretty non controversial for the Grand Canyon (which is why it'll never be a landfill under AC) but the same reasoning applies to all sorts of unsavoury things. [/ QUOTE ] Right. This is what I call a "democracy of dollars" and I don't see how it is any more defendable from a theoretic standpoint than a "democracy of votes". I prefer any method besides violence for imposing my preferences, but sometimes in life things come to violence. 
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#232
11-23-2007, 12:10 PM
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Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
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[ QUOTE ] Then buy it yourself. Or get together with a bunch of people who agree with you and buy it together. Otherwise you're just waving guns around and imposing your personal preferences through violence. It's pretty non controversial for the Grand Canyon (which is why it'll never be a landfill under AC) but the same reasoning applies to all sorts of unsavoury things. [/ QUOTE ] Right. This is what I call a "democracy of dollars" and I don't see how it is any more defendable from a theoretic standpoint than a "democracy of votes". [/ QUOTE ] Because ownership confers legitimacy. Not only that but it is a democracy of votes. You (and everyone else) get to vote for every single product and service every minute of every day through your spending and donating habits. [ QUOTE ] I prefer any method besides violence for imposing my preferences, but sometimes in life things come to violence. [/ QUOTE ] But if you can impose your preferences though violence why can't I? Why can't anyone? The fact is that under the current system they can. Whoever wrests control of the gun dictates the terms. That's how you get things like the War on Drugs. All logic and evidence points to the fact that it's a colossal waste of time money and human life and yet a certain group of people have control of the gun of the state and are using it to impose their personal preferences onto everyone else. The 0.01% risk that the Grand Canyon will turn into a landfill or that Bill Gates will kill all the hobos isn't worth the 100% chance that people are unnecessarily locked up under horrific conditions every day for non violent victimless "crimes".
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#233
11-23-2007, 12:22 PM
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Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
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Because ownership confers legitimacy. Not only that but it is a democracy of votes. You (and everyone else) get to vote for every single product and service every minute of every day through your spending and donating habits. [/ QUOTE ] Right, and for the same reason that unbridled democracy sucks, unbridled capitalism sucks. [ QUOTE ] But if you can impose your preferences though violence why can't I? Why can't anyone? The fact is that under the current system they can. Whoever wrests control of the gun dictates the terms. That's how you get things like the War on Drugs. All logic and evidence points to the fact that it's a colossal waste of time money and human life and yet a certain group of people have control of the gun of the state and are using it to impose their personal preferences onto everyone else. The 0.01% risk that the Grand Canyon will turn into a landfill or that Bill Gates will kill all the hobos isn't worth the 100% chance that people are unnecessarily locked up under horrific conditions every day for non violent victimless "crimes". [/ QUOTE ] Right, we should convince people (by any means necessary) that we must change our form of government. I thnk we are in agreement on that. We should then establish a form of government with whatever safegaurds we find reasonable.
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#234
11-23-2007, 12:35 PM
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Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
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[ QUOTE ] Because ownership confers legitimacy. Not only that but it is a democracy of votes. You (and everyone else) get to vote for every single product and service every minute of every day through your spending and donating habits. [/ QUOTE ] Right, and for the same reason that unbridled democracy sucks, unbridled capitalism sucks. [ QUOTE ] But if you can impose your preferences though violence why can't I? Why can't anyone? The fact is that under the current system they can. Whoever wrests control of the gun dictates the terms. That's how you get things like the War on Drugs. All logic and evidence points to the fact that it's a colossal waste of time money and human life and yet a certain group of people have control of the gun of the state and are using it to impose their personal preferences onto everyone else. The 0.01% risk that the Grand Canyon will turn into a landfill or that Bill Gates will kill all the hobos isn't worth the 100% chance that people are unnecessarily locked up under horrific conditions every day for non violent victimless "crimes". [/ QUOTE ] Right, we should convince people (by any means necessary) that we must change our form of government. I thnk we are in agreement on that. We should then establish a form of government with whatever safegaurds we find reasonable. [/ QUOTE ] Safeguards don't work. There has never been a time when they have worked it is not logically possible for them to work. Any safeguard you try to implement will be twisted distorted or merely ignored within the first generation or usually much much quicker. Consider the US, the freest country in the world with a constitution with built in safeguards separation of powers and all that business and look what it's turned into. The only "safeguards" that work are those that are naturally built in and unchangeable. Not a piece of paper that says don't do X but a situation where doing X is massively -EV. A free market creates this situation in a way that a government system never could. The state is a big gun telling people what to do. The fallacy is that if we just point the gun at the right people and tell them to do the right things everything will be ok but that's just not possible. Power always corrupts, if we learn one thing from history it has to be that. The gun can never be virtuous as it corrupts and makes evil everyone who touches it. Not only that but it attracts the very people that you want to protect against.
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#235
11-23-2007, 12:53 PM
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Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
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Safeguards don't work. There has never been a time when they have worked it is not logically possible for them to work. [/ QUOTE ] Safegaurds work just fine. There have been several times they have worked and it is logically possible for them to work. Nazis have freedom of speech in this country right? Your gf can get an abortion if you accidently knock her up, even in Kansas? You are arguing theoretically and ignoring the relevent reality. Constitutions aren't perfect, but imperfection is not the same as irrelevence and impotence. [ QUOTE ] The state is a big gun telling people what to do. The fallacy is that if we just point the gun at the right people and tell them to do the right things everything will be ok but that's just not possible. Power always corrupts, if we learn one thing from history it has to be that. The gun can never be virtuous as it corrupts and makes evil everyone who touches it. Not only that but it attracts the very people that you want to protect against. [/ QUOTE ] How is money not power and how does money not corrupt?
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#236
11-23-2007, 01:09 PM
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Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
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[ QUOTE ] Safeguards don't work. There has never been a time when they have worked it is not logically possible for them to work. [/ QUOTE ] Safegaurds work just fine. There have been several times they have worked and it is logically possible for them to work. Nazis have freedom of speech in this country right? Your gf can get an abortion if you accidently knock her up, even in Kansas? You are arguing theoretically and ignoring the relevent reality. Constitutions aren't perfect, but imperfection is not the same as irrelevence and impotence. [ QUOTE ] The state is a big gun telling people what to do. The fallacy is that if we just point the gun at the right people and tell them to do the right things everything will be ok but that's just not possible. Power always corrupts, if we learn one thing from history it has to be that. The gun can never be virtuous as it corrupts and makes evil everyone who touches it. Not only that but it attracts the very people that you want to protect against. [/ QUOTE ] How is money not power and how does money not corrupt? [/ QUOTE ] I'll address the first point later but as for the last, the power of money can and does corrupt (just look at people like Paris Hilton) but in a free market maintaining the power of money requires a lack of corruption. If a top 100 company builds a bridge to nowhere in the CEO's back yard and he pays himself millions for the priveldge shareholders will revolt and can have him out in 4 days rather than 4 years and what's more he can't shoot them if they refuse to pay for it. Hardly any CEO job is given uncontested many many senate seats are. Competition means a dilution of power.
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#237
11-23-2007, 04:31 PM
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Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
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Alright then, I think it's fair to say we simply disagree on the acceptable bounds of control. [/ QUOTE ] I guess. The "control" exercised when I stop someone from stealing from me is quite obviously in repsonse to control the would-be thief attempted to exercise over me. The thief opens a transaction (without my consent), and I close that transaction. The "bound" here for me is the initiation of a transaction without consent.
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#238
11-23-2007, 04:34 PM
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Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Then buy it yourself. Or get together with a bunch of people who agree with you and buy it together. Otherwise you're just waving guns around and imposing your personal preferences through violence. It's pretty non controversial for the Grand Canyon (which is why it'll never be a landfill under AC) but the same reasoning applies to all sorts of unsavoury things. [/ QUOTE ] Right. This is what I call a "democracy of dollars" and I don't see how it is any more defendable from a theoretic standpoint than a "democracy of votes". I prefer any method besides violence for imposing my preferences, but sometimes in life things come to violence. [/ QUOTE ] And for you, "sometimes" = "when I don't get my way."
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#239
11-23-2007, 04:35 PM
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Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
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Right, we should convince people (by any means necessary) that we must change our form of government. I thnk we are in agreement on that. We should then establish a form of government with whatever safegaurds we find reasonable. [/ QUOTE ] Why do we need the same form of government?
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#240
11-23-2007, 05:11 PM
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Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
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[ QUOTE ] You wrote earlier: [ QUOTE ] They aren't controlling anything, they are stopping others from doing so. [/ QUOTE ] So you're saying that if you restrain/stop someone you're not excercising control? That's crazy. [/ QUOTE ] Already covered. I was using the word in the sense of positive control (i.e. You must do X) not negative control (i.e. You must not do Y). [/ QUOTE ] Nonsense.
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