c-bets w air that face mini-raises

hamnegger · #1 09-03-2007, 05:33 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

BB (t2095)
UTG (t2300)
UTG+1 (t2010)
Hero (t2520)
MP2 (t2380)
MP3 (t1385)
CO (t8645)
Button (t1105)
SB (t510)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to t150, 1 fold, MP3 calls t150, 4 folds.

Flop: (t375) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t250, MP3 raises to t500, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1125

i really feel like these players who love to miniraise single high card flops are making a limit like play "where am i at in this hand" raise. i really feel this guy can't beat a queen. he has 88-jj. but i feel like if i play back and shove these guys call anyway. so i just fold and move on like all the time. do any of you get real agrro and push back at these guys or should i give em credit and fold waiting for higher % plays?

BrandiFan · #2 09-03-2007, 05:47 PM

I like to reraise shove AFTER I have done this sort of thing with a strong hand and had a showdown and I think villian is paying attention.
I agree that this is frequently the type of player who'll call off his stack with 99-jj here and the good news is that this type of player will try to give you his chips when you're in a better spot,,,

sledghammer · #3 09-03-2007, 05:58 PM

These minraises used to induce tilt-3bet pushes from me a lot. I've since learned to control that, and realize that they can be used against players like me with poor tilt control to induce bluff 3 bets.

BarryLyndon · #4 09-03-2007, 06:44 PM

Ham,

w/o a good read, I almost always fold this OOP. There's just no reason to move on the hand because you really don't have much of an idea where you are. You can't calculate much. You're OOP, so you're turn strategy is kinduv [censored]. Anything you put in your head is pretty much a shot in the dark.

Deeper or in position, I may call this raise if I feel that a K or A meet very nice implied odds. Still, I consider that FPS without a read. And, I probably try this later in a tournament (w/ read) than earlier.

Psychologically, fwiw, I tend to forget about the minraise as soon as it happens and just move on. I hate minraises, but I've also tilted off quite a bit against them in the past, so now I just take them as a normal part of small stakes tourney poker and move on. Writing disparaging comments in my notes section helps ease the blow as well.

Finally, I hardly EVER incorporate the min-raise in my game. I just think it [censored] sucks. It leads to so many problems with respect to scare turn cards and stack sizing that it's more painful to minraise than it is to be up against it.

Barry

Dave D · #5 09-03-2007, 06:44 PM

In my experiance I'd say these minraises are trying to see where they're at like 85% of the time. A reraise will often get a fold. It's usually the one time I don't want them to that they call the reraise with a good hand. In that case, it's the nuts.

Thegunshow · #6 09-03-2007, 10:12 PM

Forgetting the minraise, what are you hoping to fold out with the continuation bet? You got a board that you completely missed that hits a ton of holdings and seems safe to mid pairs(99,1010,JJ). My suggestion here woud be to not continuation bet blindly and avoid the whole situation.

As for the min bet, if you don't believe it, you have to be sure your opponent is capable of folding a medium strength hand before you shove. If the guy calls with something silly like 23hh or 45hh, ou are in a coinflip due to him being live and suited.

BarryLyndon · #7 09-04-2007, 12:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Forgetting the minraise, what are you hoping to fold out with the continuation bet? You got a board that you completely missed that hits a ton of holdings and seems safe to mid pairs(99,1010,JJ). My suggestion here woud be to not continuation bet blindly and avoid the whole situation.

As for the min bet, if you don't believe it, you have to be sure your opponent is capable of folding a medium strength hand before you shove. If the guy calls with something silly like 23hh or 45hh, ou are in a coinflip due to him being live and suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

44, 55, 66, potentially 99. All hands you beat that you don't want to give a free card to. Standard cont. bet here. If you are afraid to c-bet on a Q 8h 7h flop, then, well, that's not good.

Pokerfarian · #8 09-04-2007, 08:02 AM

For what it's worth, SHANIA would pretty much say you should shove AK & fold the rest of your air. But it's not worth much.

KidSensation · #9 09-04-2007, 10:59 AM

Ugh...I hate these situations. I'm folding here unless I have some shot at a backdoor draw of some kind. If I have a shot at drastically improving my hand on the turn...I'll take a relatively cheap turn card by just smooth calling here.

For example, the J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] would be a very interesting turn card here.

Thegunshow · #10 09-04-2007, 08:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Forgetting the minraise, what are you hoping to fold out with the continuation bet? You got a board that you completely missed that hits a ton of holdings and seems safe to mid pairs(99,1010,JJ). My suggestion here woud be to not continuation bet blindly and avoid the whole situation.

As for the min bet, if you don't believe it, you have to be sure your opponent is capable of folding a medium strength hand before you shove. If the guy calls with something silly like 23hh or 45hh, ou are in a coinflip due to him being live and suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

44, 55, 66, potentially 99. All hands you beat that you don't want to give a free card to. Standard cont. bet here. If you are afraid to c-bet on a Q 8h 7h flop, then, well, that's not good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have to disagree with you Barry. Our villian is rather shortstacked and I'm expecting a shove against any kind of continuation bet here. Even the small range you are afraid of giving a free card to may shove over whatever I bet. With almost 400 in the pot and my opponent down to about 1k, I'm not betting unless I'm prepared to get it all in with this guy. In that case, I might as well shove the flop and make him think a little.

Regarding flop texture, what type of flop do you respect enough to consider forgoing the cont bet?