Why do people play Hi hands in Stud 8/b???

[Nybbles_64]

First: Thank you very much for the blunt advice in my last thread.. I definitely played it bad, got lucky, sucked out for a net 10BB and learned some good lessons.

Now, I've been looking at the Stud Hi/Lo in S/S (a bit out dated since they didn't use qualifiers back when it was published, but seems to be good advice anyway). I was looking through it and the major points I got from it was 1) Always try to scoop, and 2) High hands are trash.

Now.. why are there so many hands like this where I'm forced to fold to a Sucker? (I think I could have saved one bet on 6th.) Anyway... they are going to lose in the end, right?

7 Card Stud High-Low ($0.25/$0.50), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)

Seat 1: $9.15
Seat 2: $12.80
Seat 4: $5.10
Seat 5: $13.05
Hero: $9.95
Seat 7: $14.75
Seat 8: $5.80

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Vil 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Vil 8: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (3.00 SB)

Vil 2: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Vil 8: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (3.00 BB)

Vil 2: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Vil 8: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks

6th Street - (3.00 BB)

Vil 2: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Vil 8: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

River - (6.00 BB)

Vil 2: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Vil 8: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

Total pot: (8.00 BB)

Results (in white):<font color="white">

Total pot $4 | Rake $0.15

Vil 2: [5h Qd Ac 4s 6h 2h Kd] (HI: high card Ace; LO: 6,5,4,2,A)

Vil 8: [Th Ts Jh 6d 3d 3h Tc] (HI: a full house, Tens full of Threes)

</font>

P.S. As I wrote this topic, I started with 23-A, ended with 3's full of 2's on the river (23-A253-2)... lost to KK-KQ2K-Q in a nice multiway pot. Everyone else missed low. *sigh*

[betgo]

Why do people play 862,r in Stud/8?????

[Nybbles_64]

I really have to go get Ray Zee's book, don't I?

[RustyBrooks]

I'm not sure what I think of your bet on 4th. You probably don't have the best high hand, and you are a loooong way from the best low hand. Your board doesn't even look like a decent low draw so I'm not sure what you expect your opponents to think.

Why do you bet 6th and then fold on 7th? When the J catches an open pair you must think you're in trouble. Most of the high hands people play are:
* random 3-flush hands
* big 3 straights
* pairs
The first 2 categories are pretty unlikely given the action I think.

You no longer have the possibility of making a low, not to mention that it looks like Vil 2 is already there, and your best improvement is to a full house, with all your sixes dead (you're drawing to 2 eights). I don't think you even want Ts and 6s, that's really no better than 8s and 6s. So there are exactly 2 cards you want to see on 7th.

Actually it's amazing you didn't get raised by Vil 2 on 6th. Shocking really, I'd be pumping that sucker for all it's worth.


I just checked the 3rd st action out again. Fold this as first to act. I might overlimp behind several players on 3rd but acting 1st before 2 aces sucks.


(This goes so much easier if you don't show cards. Now I have to try to not look at them while puzzling out the hand)

[Andy B]

Don't show your opponents' hole cards unless you have a good reason to.

The reason that high hands are unplayable in high-low no-qualifier is that they have essentially no chance to scoop. They are more playable in stud/8 because they have some chance to scoop when the low hands bust out. That said, most players tend to overvalue high hands, so a lot of them lose money on them. I would expect this to be especially true at the micro-limits.

Fold third. You have no credible shot for high and there are two Aces yet to act.

I'd lean towards checking fourth. It's true that the scary boards have checked, but they're still a little scary, and I'm not that excited about your prospects in either direction.

Fifth through seventh are debatable, but I won't argue with any of them.

[Andy B]

Uh, yeah. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[RustyBrooks]

It's a good book, and while I am not against lining Ray Zee's pockets, I should probably mention that it's available quite reasonably priced used.

A 1 or 2 hour session at .5/1 ought to cover it [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Hamlet]

862 rainbow is pretty ragged. If your opponents are passive and real bad, you can get away with it, but folding is better. Andy is right. Fear the Aces behind you.

On fourth, I would be looking for a free card. The Ace and the bring-in caught good.

6th is debatable. 5th checking through makes me suspect the two pair is good for high, but the pot is tiny and the Ace has 4 to a low showing.

[Raxxmataxx]

[ QUOTE ]
I really have to go get Ray Zee's book, don't I?

[/ QUOTE ]I remember mostly getting confused by the book, myself. As a starter I think you're better off running hands against each other in twodimes.net to get a better sense of hand values, since you seem to be a little confused about it. It's entirely free, after all.

[Rush17]

You asked why people play high hands in stud 8/b. I agree that most high-hand type hands are not going to play well in this game. But, don't let that mislead you into thinking that ALL 3 card low hands are playable either. Because they're not.

The object (or, optimally) is to enter pots with 3 low cards that can BACK INTO a high hand, such as 234, 345, A23, A45, 567, or 3 suited cards. All those starting hands have good potential to make straights, A's up, or a flush. And, ALL those hands have very good scoop potential, and basically, that's really what you're looking to achieve. SCOOP!

The 862 hand has virtually no high draw, and you're playing an 8 that also has a 6 in it. Which means, that, even if you managed to catch 3 perfect low cards (A34) you'd still wind up with an 86---low. And rarely will that hold up for 1/2 the pot in a multi-way pot with other low drawers.

And, because this is also a stud game, you have to take the other upcards into consideration before entering a pot. In 8/b, when there's an Ace lurking (and in your case there were 2 Aces out), this should be an auto-fold because the likelihood of one of them raising on 3rd is just too high. And, if that happened, you would really have a hard time calling because, if they're raising on a low, you couldn't even beat what you see. Which, reminds me, if you're going to play a bad low hand, at least have an Ace in the hole (ie;86A); that way, if you hit an Ace, you'll give yourself a much better chance to earn on the hand.