Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged

[nineinchal]

[ QUOTE ]
You are all way way way out of focus here...

there is no way to know if a site is rigged or not from
the hand history. You are all thinking in one direction which is viewing a persons hole cards. this is not the only way to rigg a site.

how about - open the source code ? let you compile the source code yourself ... and have a 3'rd party company check the server side of the software....???
and have the clients decide which comapny will check it ...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I'm talking about, more geek insight required.

I don't understand what this means, however I am certain it is some computer stuff that is very important and relevant and is way above my head.

[Henry17]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are all way way way out of focus here...

there is no way to know if a site is rigged or not from
the hand history. You are all thinking in one direction which is viewing a persons hole cards. this is not the only way to rigg a site.

how about - open the source code ? let you compile the source code yourself ... and have a 3'rd party company check the server side of the software....???
and have the clients decide which comapny will check it ...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I'm talking about, more geek insight required.

I don't understand what this means, however I am certain it is some computer stuff that is very important and relevant and is way above my head.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually no. The source code is of zero value.

[nineinchal]

[ QUOTE ]
I started reading along with the post until people started bashing back and forth so I’m not sure how much of what I got was legitimate, and how much of it was just common internet forum junk.

From what I got nineinchal was talking about starting a type of statistical internet database to determine wither or not a said internet poker site was legitimate or manipulating players into forking over cash.

It sounds like a good idea, but I think his scrutiny was a little diminutive. I’m not trying to under mind nineinchal in anyway; I just think that putting tougher an online database to give players that know about the database an edge over players that wouldn’t know where to look for the database is a little unjust.

Wither or not online gambling is legit or not is a topic we could bicker about in forums for life times to come, or we could just all around say [censored] it and really do something about it… That’s just what I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly stitch, I just want to divide the legitimate from the crooks; whatever that may entail.

I believe the body of knowledge will come from various sciences such as math, statistics, economics, computer science, forensics, accoutning, auditing, logistics, to name but a few. Sorry if I left anybody out, feel free to chime in.

[nineinchal]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are actually serious about this then.

1. Come up with a series of questions you want answered. Just stuff like is the game rigged is meaningless. You need more specific questions such as

i) are the starting hand distributions fair?
ii) do the results of heads up all in situations confirm to expected outcomes?
iii)etc..

Then once you have a set of questions pay someone with the required statistical skills to answer your specific questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, more specific questions. Good start, thanks.

[berya]

Brooklyn is screwing your data.

[nineinchal]

[ QUOTE ]
Brooklyn is screwing your data.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but I went to Harvard to counteract the Brooklyn effect.

[StitchNV]

how about - open the source code ? let you compile the source code yourself ... and have a 3'rd party company check the server side of the software....???
and have the clients decide which company will check it ...

The source code for the program wouldn’t really do you much good, you already know what you need to know about the program on your computer, which is that it uses port 465 which is the same port most servers use for SSLs.

The more important question is what there servers use for a RNG. Such as Full Tilt using what they call a TRNG, as apposed to other sites using a PRNG.

Other important information would be “When dose the server relay my hole cards to my competitors system?”

A fear would be if the server was programmed to have the whole game played out, no matter what the situation, such as “Player 1 will get Ad 3s, Player 2 will get 7c 8d, player 3 will get Kd 7s, so on.” Then something like “Flop will be XXX, turn will be X, river will be X, return results, compile results, declare winner.”

I don’t think that would be the case for any of the sites you might play on. I could almost tell you for a fact that every poker game you play is SSS (Server side scripted) meaning that information is only sent to each players computer as it becomes relevant. Its kinda simple to understand if you have ever programmed anything in ASP, or PHP.

But having an outside party/company examine the programming and giving it an approval would be ideal.

So would other factors such as “How dose this site explore the acclamations of cheating, coddling, botting, and so forth.” Then if after examining like lets say 20 different investigations a month, give them approval if they meet the standards.

Another thing to keep in mind; Once google inc employs somebody to work on there search engine spider bots, or web ranking formula, that person signs a contract stating that they will not work on any other competitors spider bots programming, or website ranking formula.

Dose my poker site have the guy that programmed there RNG sign a contract saying that they wont play on there website, or is the guy that work on there RNG everyday sitting across the high stacks NL cyber table from me?

I don’t know, maybe I’m just tired and my minds getting away from me… but for some reason I’m really getting into this.

[Sciolist]

[ QUOTE ]
The big hurdle, though, would be that people won't want to give up their HHs. The only thing I could see working would be to decide on some key stats, and have players submit just those stats.

[/ QUOTE ]
You would also need a way to trust whoever datamined the hands. If my agenda was to show that site ABC was rigged, I would datamine that site for a couple million hands, then remove all the times AA held up (or whatever) and purposely bias the sample.

[Sciolist]

[ QUOTE ]
You also have the problem that there is nothing to compare it to. The only thing to compare it to is statistically info. I would imagine if you took a million hands from a B&M it would be off INSAINLY LARGE from what it should do to human error.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't need to compare it to anything. We already know the expectation of whatever we want to know. Also, I imagine that the only differences between online and live poker is that in live poker the shuffle is less likely to be perfect so there is going to be a very small correlation between the current hand and the prior hand.

[Henry17]

[ QUOTE ]

The more important question is what there servers use for a RNG. Such as Full Tilt using what they call a TRNG, as apposed to other sites using a PRNG.

[/ QUOTE ]

No major site uses a PRNG. They have all switched to TRNG and you can find details about that on their sites.