How does 5/10 rule apply to 3 bets?

[Peleus]

Hi,

Just wondering how the technical aspect of the 5/10 rule applies to re raises if that makes any sense.

I'll use money as its simpler, however it can be applied to any limit as BB's if you wanted.

Let say 50nl, $50 effective stacks.
In both examples we have 55, being treated as set mining hand.

Example 1 is we have a raise from MP and we're on the button, raise is for $1.75, or less then 5% of our stack, standard call to set mine, and also agree's with the rule of 5/10.

Example 2 however is we raise from MP with 55 to $1.75, and we get 3 bet from the button raising to $6. In this case if you look at the amount you have to call in isolation, its $4.5, and a judgment call as to call or not (between 5%-10%).

On the flip side if you look at the total amount, we will be committing $6 in total, which is more then 10%, which should be a fold according to the rule of 5/10.

What if you raise $3, and then get min raised so its only another $3?

Does the 5/10 rule look at the individual amounts, or the overall amount you are committing?

Any help would be appreciated.

[iheartponeez]

Consider the amount on top.

You have a 1/8.5 chance of hitting a set, round it up to 1/10 cause you're not always gonna stack someone (but in a 3-bet pot, it's much more likely). So for 4.50 you get a 1/10 chance of winning 50. That, sir, is +EV.


(But I have to tell you, it's frustrating to hit set after set vs. shortstacks, then:

You and another guy are playing eff. stacks of 200BB, you raise to 4BB with 33, and he makes his "standard" 3-bet to 12BB, or even 16 or 18BB and you pretty much have to call based on odds. And you never hit. Not ever.)

[PokerSlut]

Keep in mind that if you are facing a 3-bet and you do not close the betting, you might end up having to fold to another raise.

[AHMWM]

I would only call a 3-bet here if there is a decent amount of possible flops where you still feel your hand is good. I would say you want to lay down anything below 77 for sure. If you are calling a 3-bet with action still behind strictly for set value, I would say it is a mistake.

[iheartponeez]

Yes, you definitely have to be closing the action to call the 3-bet.

But laying down 77 seems wrong, you're definitely getting odds to hit your set, and to say "He probably won't stack off" seems wrong in a 3-bet pot. A board with a 7 is more likely to leave him with an overpair, and more likely to give you his money.

Srsly, call.

[matrix]

have a read of this thread which is very relevant to calling 3bets for set mining.

[ QUOTE ]
It is my estimation, you need, in a rr pot vs some1 who 3bets lightish at least 17:1 maybe 18:1 to call a low PP for set value

[/ QUOTE ]
that quote is from Dan's OP - and is pretty much on the money. When you are lookng at the implied odds situation you only look at the amount you have to call that particular decision - so if you open rase to 4bb and get 3bet to 12bb you only have to work on the 8bb you need to call there and then - not the total amount.

Basically Dans premise to this thread was that th e 5/10 rule while helpful is now out of date- and I think that as the games at lower stakes get more aggressive then we shouldn't be using the 5/10 rule - and instead use a 3:8 rule.

Use the same mechanism as the 5/10 rule - just tighter in that if the preflop call you need to make is THREE PERCENT OR LESS than the effective stack in play (the shortest stack betweenyou and the villain) it's an auto call - between 3% and 8% is a judgement call and over 8% is an AUTO FOLD.

This is assuming that we are purely set mining and fold EVERY FLOP where we miss flopping a set.

Obv some of the times you do flop a set and get all-in villain folds - so this means that sometimes we could play as if we flop a set and villain folds. Generally speaking the bad postflop playing villains at microstakes will 3bet JJ+ and Ax - if they hit an ace on the flop with AX they get it all-in - if they have JJ-KK and an ace flops they won't get all in. It's very hard to determine which of these two situations you are in and mistakes are very expensive.
we canalso play back with 55 if the flop comes something like 234 467 346 etc and we flop a pair & an OESD which is 10 outs to beat an overpair so we are roughly a 40/60 dog on the flop to AA and the dead money in the pot already makes it more than +EV to get it all-in on the flop.


but read the thread I linked - bookmark it and read it some more later.

[Red Shell]

the 5/10 rule is to high imo, the game has moved on. when considering when to call, you have to look at way more than % of stacks. Went to showdown, preflop raise and aggression are much more important.

In general if your three bet your usually looking at 2/1 on your call. So you have to estimate if you can make up the extra, either by playing for pair value or via a set. If the player is straight forward and c-bets, checks turn and river with wiffed hands then you can play prefectly. If the players a little more aggro postflop then you need to consider your implied odds more which is where went to showdown is important.