10/20 JJ overpaire in RR pot , monotone board...

[freeucm]

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with Jc call, without fold

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really? why?

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because its close already and the jack high flushdraw which is good sometimes makes the difference imo.
note that when a club comes on the turn it often goes check-check even if he has a higher club, so the hand is pretty easy to play

i think the main problem here is that there are a lot of cards where u just cant take any more heat (any club,A,K or Q) and almost no chance to improve your hand

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so were hoping for 4 to the flush with J, leaving us with 7 possibilities of flushes for an ace, 6 for the king, 5 for the queen.

18 hands beat our flush with the jack of clubs..pfff plus 6 hands of qq,kk,aa..

36 there then maybe even a set of the ones on the board making it 45, then 45 possibilitiess of flush hands making it 90 hands just on flop alone if we dont hold the jack of clubs if we do 36 possible flush hands.

90 hands that beat us on flop, fold>

[Chaoslord]

wtf are you talking about

[cocarondelle]

sorry, it is 6 max.

I couldn't find a replayer (or was to lazy actually to look for it...)so I wrote it in an ultra donkish type [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[friedace]

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Everybody who's saying this is a fold on the flop should also be saying this is a fold preflop since you can't call for set value here.

I would call this flop and fold to further agression.

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I don't think this is a clear cut fold preflop.

Hero raises 70 (stack 1930). BB 3bets to 230. 160 for hero to call. Current pot is 330. Villain stack is 1770. So, hero has to call 160 to win 2100. (1770+330). He is getting stack odds of 13.125:1.

On 2+2, most 2+2ers subscribed to the rule of 10:1 stack odds to call for set value. Sklansky advocates 14:1 in NLHETP and Mehta/Miller advocate 12:1 in their new PNLHE book. We're almost getting enough for the most conservative estimate, and way more than the majority of people on these forums need to call purely for set value.

I would call and fold to a significant turn bet, especially since we have the Jc, which gives us some showdown value, especially considering things should slow down of a club peels off.

As a side note, where did this 10:1 rule originate? Has anyone else noticed that conventional wisdom on 2+2 goes against the estimates given in two fairly reputable books?