AA hands - 2 big losses - am i playing badly here??

[Jeff76]

In hand 1 I think you are betting too much on the flop and turn. It's a fairly dry board (he could be drawing with 78s, but that's about it) so you are in a WA/WB situation. Your best case scenario is to be up against AQ, and he'll probably call a bet with a hand like JJ/TT, but usually not stack off. Since AQ probably doesn't stack off either, you aren't looking to play for stacks here- you want to get the most value from the hands he'll call with. If you think he'll call 3 smallish bets with a hand like AQ, then try that. Another line is to check behind on the turn and then represent a big bluff on the river, which JJ will probably pay off. I'd bet $2 on the flop and probably about 1/2 pot on the turn or even check behind planning to value bet 3/4 or a PSB on the river. With smaller bet amounts you can get away on the turn if he c/r you, because very few players at this level c/r the turn as a bluff or something as weak as AQ.

I always am thinking about what hands I think will call and how much they will call. Even though on this flop you likely have the best hand, the only part of his range you should expect to get stacks in with is the part you are behind. Smaller bets will make this less likely to happen and get better value from underpair hands like JJ, who will have difficulty calling PSBs on multiplel streets.


Hand two is a totally different story. Your hand is very strong for this action and this board. People very rarely re-raise with full houses or trips on paired boards, so you can call pretty confidently ahead of his range. Even if he didn't move all in, you should be ready to.

[maca9]

Hi Jeff76

Thanks for the comments.

So when you say the bets are too much you mean if they were behind me they wouldn't call AND since they did call the bigger bets then they are prob ahead.

I guess AQ would call flop bet but not reraise the turn bet.

So as played (with bigger bets from me) i should have realised i'm behind???


And if i played same situation with smaller bets I give myself the chance to have worse hands calling AND don't lose as much if I flod the turn to his reraise???

Have I understood that?


Also if a fulsh draw was on board would you then need to bet more in line with what I did?

[AlexB182]

[ QUOTE ]



I just don't understand how the smaller bets would have prevented me losing here once the action started from villian.

[/ QUOTE ]

The smaller bets do not help you NOT losing the pot, they help you either lose less here or to win at least a decent amount from a hand that you beat and that could not call two PSBs here.
BTW: Good post, Jeff.

[maca9]

Thanks Alex.

I have edited my reply - hopefully that is more in line with what you guys are saying.

CHeers

[Jeff76]

It's possible that you could have gotten away depending on the action. On this board, a crai on the turn usually means you're beat.

But the point is not how to avoid getting stacked. The point is how to get appropriate value from your hand. The question you have to ask yourself when you see a flop and you have an overpair or TPTK kind of hand is "if villain has a hand he is willing to get it all in with on this board, do I expect to have the best of it?" If the answer is "no", you want to take steps to avoid building the bot so big that you are committed to getting it all in, because when that happens you'll be in bad shape.

When you hear people talk about SPR (stack to pot ratio), this is what it's all about. Your SPR in hand 1 is 8 (villain has 8x the pot on the flop). So the question is, will he put in 8 times this pot on this board with a hand worse than AA? It isn't likely that he will. With an overpair you can expect people to put in about 4 or 5x the pot with a worse hand; beyond that and they aren't sticking around without a hand that is probably better than yours.

Since we recognize that villain will probably only put in 4 or 5x the pot with a hand like AQ or JJ, betting the pot on every street isn't necessary. In fact, JJ might put in 4x the pot, but it probably isn't doing it with you potting every street. He'll need to get a sense somewhere that you are weak. That's why checking behind on the turn might be most effective here.

Now let's say the pot was twice as much- you guys managed to get it to $6 instead of 3. Now your SPR is around 4 and you should be looking to build the pot as quickly and aggressively as possible. Why? Because villain will put in his full stack with a much wider ranger of hands now. He won't have a chance to get away once he realizes you really are strong. So while he still might have a set and AQ,JJ etc. in his range, you'll see AQ and JJ more often when all the chips go in.

[maca9]

[ QUOTE ]
It's possible that you could have gotten away depending on the action. On this board, a crai on the turn usually means you're beat.

But the point is not how to avoid getting stacked. The point is how to get appropriate value from your hand. The question you have to ask yourself when you see a flop and you have an overpair or TPTK kind of hand is "if villain has a hand he is willing to get it all in with on this board, do I expect to have the best of it?" If the answer is "no", you want to take steps to avoid building the bot so big that you are committed to getting it all in, because when that happens you'll be in bad shape.

When you hear people talk about SPR (stack to pot ratio), this is what it's all about. Your SPR in hand 1 is 8 (villain has 8x the pot on the flop). So the question is, will he put in 8 times this pot on this board with a hand worse than AA? It isn't likely that he will. With an overpair you can expect people to put in about 4 or 5x the pot with a worse hand; beyond that and they aren't sticking around without a hand that is probably better than yours.

Since we recognize that villain will probably only put in 4 or 5x the pot with a hand like AQ or JJ, betting the pot on every street isn't necessary. In fact, JJ might put in 4x the pot, but it probably isn't doing it with you potting every street. He'll need to get a sense somewhere that you are weak. That's why checking behind on the turn might be most effective here.

Now let's say the pot was twice as much- you guys managed to get it to $6 instead of 3. Now your SPR is around 4 and you should be looking to build the pot as quickly and aggressively as possible. Why? Because villain will put in his full stack with a much wider ranger of hands now. He won't have a chance to get away once he realizes you really are strong. So while he still might have a set and AQ,JJ etc. in his range, you'll see AQ and JJ more often when all the chips go in.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thanks Jeff76.


Thats the best explanation I've ever had for SPR and why pot size is important.

Now it makes sense!!!


Its not about playng so you avoid getting stacked in a given situation. Its about playing the hand a way which mazimizes your value so that in aggregate across many hands ("long run") you win the most.

Part of that long run will include losing to sets, bad calls getting lucky etc....But if you maximise value by playing better SPR you will make more when against a worse hand so overall you'll make more.


I hope I got that right. Certainly made sense reading it.


Thanks again. Awesome post.

[maca9]

[ QUOTE ]

When you hear people talk about SPR (stack to pot ratio), this is what it's all about. Your SPR in hand 1 is 8 (villain has 8x the pot on the flop). So the question is, will he put in 8 times this pot on this board with a hand worse than AA? It isn't likely that he will. With an overpair you can expect people to put in about 4 or 5x the pot with a worse hand; beyond that and they aren't sticking around without a hand that is probably better than yours.

Since we recognize that villain will probably only put in 4 or 5x the pot with a hand like AQ or JJ, betting the pot on every street isn't necessary. In fact, JJ might put in 4x the pot, but it probably isn't doing it with you potting every street. He'll need to get a sense somewhere that you are weak. That's why checking behind on the turn might be most effective here.

Now let's say the pot was twice as much- you guys managed to get it to $6 instead of 3. Now your SPR is around 4 and you should be looking to build the pot as quickly and aggressively as possible. Why? Because villain will put in his full stack with a much wider ranger of hands now. He won't have a chance to get away once he realizes you really are strong. So while he still might have a set and AQ,JJ etc. in his range, you'll see AQ and JJ more often when all the chips go in.

[/ QUOTE ]


1 more question........


Is SPR only relevent to stacks compared to the pot after the flop?

Obv the actual ratio of Stack to pot changes as pot increases with betting on each street. So when SPR is discussed in terms of strategy its always SPR after the flop?

[Jeff76]

SPR is only measured on the flop. This is because it is mainly a tool for planning your hand. You plan for SPRs you'd like before the flop, and then you plan how you will play your hand based on the SPR and hand you have on the flop.

You haven't read it, I strongly suggest Professional No Limit, vol 1. Very good poker book.

[maca9]

Thanks again.

I have gt that book. Arrived a few weeks ago and only read small bits.

Need to study it!!

Cheers

[Jeff76]

Heh, you changed your post so I'll respond to some of your other comments:

[ QUOTE ]
So as played (with bigger bets from me) i should have realised i'm behind???

[/ QUOTE ]As played, you really have committed yourself to the pot. You are getting almost 3 to 1 on your call, which means you only have to be good 25% of the time to making calling profitable. I don't think any tell of "CRAI on the turn is not a bluff or AQ" is strong enough to fold getting those kinds of odds. But you should realize when you make that turn bet that you are not folding.

[ QUOTE ]
Also if a fulsh draw was on board would you then need to bet more in line with what I did?

[/ QUOTE ]A flush draw changes the dynamic, but a lot depends on villain's tendencies. It's not a simple answer. Your line MIGHT be more appropriate or even optimal on such a board if you've seen him call big bets with draws and not slow play his sets on draw heavy boards. If he is the kind to slow play his sets no matter what the board, you still may play a little more reserved.

A more draw heavy board makes your decisions more complicated.