let's get the facts straight: poker makes money

[El_Hombre_Grande]

Welcome to the real world. Poker is treated like a "redheaded stepchild" because American regulators severely restrict gambling. And in the most profitable of all sectors, poker can't measure up to the one armed bandits and thus a number of casinos look down their noses at it. More overhead and headache for less revenue. But if you compare a poker room to the vast majority of businesses you might invest a $ in, (say, like grocery stores or drycleaners or transmission shops or delis or burger joints or whatever) its clear that a poker room ought to be able to return a tidy sum, $ for $ in light of the interest in it today. But those that hold the licences have bigger sheep to shear, and I don't think many politicos are in favor of expanding "gambling" by leaps and bounds.

[Don Olney]

At one time this was true, but now there is a push out here in Las Vegas to have no hand shuffle at all.
So, in a time game we sit waiting for the shuffle machine when a hand is raised and folded around. TIME WASTED --- SATISFACTION GONE.....

[carddown]

I believe that the value of a Poker room goes far beyond the cost generated per square foot. A Poker room is a real attraction, one that Poker players will go out of their way to choose. They'll plan trips and vacations around it, sometimes with an entourage of general gamblers along for the ride.

If I were a casino executive, I'd have to look at a cardroom as a different animal. It is an attraction, but it is also a cash generating part of the casino. It has to be judged by another set of standards than equal real estate packed with slot machines.

[CORed]

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You guys also forget that casinos do not own the shuffling machines and lease them. Those shuffling machines are outrageously expensive and cost the casino as well. I believe the standard automatic shuffler has a market value of 16k PER shuffler. Obviously its leased but its still an additional cost. (The same applies to other games though with auto shufflers)

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True, but the shuffling machines increase hands per hour and therefore rake (or drop and hold for table games). The casinos wouldn't use them if the additional rake generated didn't offset (and then some) the cost of leasing them.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

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A big part of this is that for whatever reason different departments in casinos do not communicate or cooperate.

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This is not just a fact, it's practically standard operating procedure. It's amazing the resistance you'll encounter when you want to get something done that affects more than your specific department. The worst (naturally) is human resources. Their job is to take a simple problem and make it complicated.

Al

[AWLurch]

True about the communication problems between areas of the casino floor. Some of this has to do with the competition for the players dollar. Supervisors in all areas are encouraged to attain the most amount from each player as possible while delivering good customer service. Their job is on the line in this effort.

Unfortunately, when you have supervisors from "competing" areas of the floor, cooperation is a bit difficult at times.

On a completely side note, this thread definitely shows the importance of regular poker players use of the players card at not only the poker room, but in the pits, sportsbook and slots as well. If management sees the regular players are gambling outside the poker room, it significantly increases the inherent value of the room.

[bav]

[ QUOTE ]
On a completely side note, this thread definitely shows the importance of regular poker players use of the players card at not only the poker room, but in the pits, sportsbook and slots as well. If management sees the regular players are gambling outside the poker room, it significantly increases the inherent value of the room.

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Best I can tell, the casinos have little clue you even exist as a poker player. I get the feeling the computers that run the comps when you clock in/out at Harrah's/Bally's/etc are completely disconnected from any other system. There's no sign the corporation knows you exist if you don't use your card elsewhere. Which means, they won't know "this is primarily a poker player, but lookee at all the VP action we get from him, too." But I could be wrong about that. I keep hearing how incredibly sophisticated Harrah's systems are for tracking players--I just ain't seen any sign of it.

[Lord_Strife]

I read about half of this thread and while I admit it is a very good one, I will probably finish reading it at a later time. One thing that I feel needs to be added is that they make more money than just the rake in the few card rooms that I have worked at. Most dealers are required to tip X% of their box to the floor staff to alleviate some of the expenses that you mention. Paying your dealers $3.15/hr doesn't cost very much and the more tables you have running, your avg cost per table SHOULD go up because less floor men are needed in my opinion. A 4 table night might require 1 or 2 suits to operate at full functionality but a 20 table night might only require 3 to operate at full value. So in this instance you have 20 dealers tipping 10% (what it is where I work) and pretty much paying the salaries of these 3 floor men.

Most of the para-mutual facilities in Florida have very successful poker rooms and they bring in players that wouldn't ordinarily bet on dogs/horses (even though the rake on those averages around 28%) and in Broward County they even have slot machines to take advantage of the poker players. So these para-mutuals have blossomed because of the poker boom, thats for sure.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

In rooms where neandertals (knuckles dragging on ground) don't run the place, dealers are required to tip out the floors. I never have a problem with tipping out a floor who's doing their job well. A good floor keep games going, customers happy, and keeps dealers making money. This is the system in the civilized world.

Disneyland, err, vegas is not the civilized world. Neandertals are probably a bit advanced for vegas corporate upper management, [censored] erectus is more like it. In many vegas rooms, both the dealer and floor will be fired if the dealer tips out. Then the house pays the floors less than 2/3 what the pit floors get. On top of that, some will actually be forcing the floors to put any customer tokes into a box to be run thru the cage and taxed (or more likely, lost by payroll). I'm of course referring to the most hated name in gaming wink wink. Their prehistoric stupidity keeps vegas floorpersons miles below par and keeps vegas in the lead for the worst run poker in the country.

On the subject of tracking, this is so important I'm starting a new thread.

Al

[John Kilduff]

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Years before the Moneymaker era poker was the loss-leader of the casino. Just as the local grocery store sells their milk at a loss to draw people in the doors the casinos would maintain the games and the poker rooms to draw players into the room in hopes that these players will gamble in the other more profitable areas. At the time the rake was required to get the casino closer to the break even point not to necessarily provide a profit.



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Believe it or not, poker made money for the house back in those "ancient days" before the Chris Moneymaker era, too.