Sit 'N Go strategy-reviews?

[Jeff76]

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Can't speak for others, but I'm not trying to be tricky. Just trying to get value for the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]Whether you are trying to be tricky or not, limping a big hand is deceptive. Deceptive isn't bad in poker, obviously, but you have to consider if the situation warrants it. As I've said, I believe that the value you gain from the deception is not worth the value you pass up by not raising.

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1) I'm hoping for someone else to raise and then I can reraise and hopefully trap callers.

[/ QUOTE ]In most games I need to have reason to believe someone will raise my limp before I make this play. In a STT, the levels where this kind of think would be useful (in the beginning, where stacks are deeper) I usually haven't played with the players enough to have this kind of read.

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2) If that doesn't work out, maybe I'll flop a set and win a much bigger pot than I would have had I raised.

[/ QUOTE ]It is REALLY hard to get value from top set because there is less chance someone will have top pair or an overpair, which are the kinds of hands that wills stack off to a set.

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All pairs play well multiway.

[/ QUOTE ]This is simply not true. Small pairs play much better multiway than big ones do, and the reason is that when they make a hand (a set) they are well hidden and leave room for someone to make a second best hand (top pair, over pair) that will stack off to you.

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3) If that doesn't work out, maybe it will only be 3-4 handed...I'll play it kinda soft and keep pot small. Can get a few loose riverscalls or induce a few small bluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]True- there's always value in these big pairs. But you will be able to play your overpair more strongly in a heads up pot and get better value from it. This is why you should seek to get heads up with your big pair with whatever line you take.

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If I raise UTG, I'll usually either collect the blinds (which is nothing) or I might get one caller.

[/ QUOTE ]Only in the first two levels of a STT are the blinds nothing, and even then winning those few chips is better than losing chips trying to trap your opponents.

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If he's a good player, he basically knows what I have and will give action only if he's got me. Not good.

[/ QUOTE ]I assume you are raising hands like AK and AQ UTG as well, so a good player won't "know what you have". If he'll call and then fold the flop unless he can beat an overpair, you should raise more hands UTG. However, I rarely see opponents this tight.

[Jeff76]

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This is classic bad advice because it presents only 2 options.

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I didn't say there were only two outcomes.

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I didn't say you said there were only two outcomes. I said you presented two outcomes. Your sentence provided a sort of Hobson's choice, when no such choice exists.

[/ QUOTE ]My sentence was part of a larger post, the point of which was to address why I think limping KK UTG is bad. I was giving an example of how things can go really wrong when you limp big pairs. However, I did not stop with this so-called "Hobson's choice"- I explained the liming can easily lead to playing a big pair OOP in a multi-way pot, which is a situation you want to avoid.

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I highlighted the outcome of getting stacked post flop if you let people in cheap because it is a situation that is easy to avoid and there is little value in not avoiding it.

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Yes it's easy to avoid obviously. But it's far from necessarily true that there's little value in not avoiding it. An obvious classic situation is when there is an aggressive player or 2 behind you at the table who like to punish limpers by raising.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, with a read that an agressive player who likes to punish limpers I will limp big pairs; however, I can't remember ever having this kind of read in the early levels of a STT because I simply don't have enough hands. Also, my read must be that this player will raise me if I limp, but not give me action if I simply raise. If he'll give me action to a raise, I'd rather just do that because then I can play my hand a little more disguised than if I l/r, which basically announces my hand as soon as the chips go in. If the aggressive player has half a brain, he'll fold. If he's not folding to a l/r, chances are we'd have gotten it in anyway if I'd played it more straightforwardly.

[Jeff76]

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2) If that doesn't work out, maybe I'll flop a set and win a much bigger pot than I would have had I raised. All pairs play well multiway.

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True that. It's funny how people say AA/KK/QQ don't play well multiway, but 77/66/55 do. That's just crazy. KK is so much better of a hand to have multiway than 77 it's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]777 plays better multiway than KK, and it's not even close. With KK the hand you are trying to hit the majority of the time is an overpair. KK hits its hand a LOT more than 77 does, which is why it is a better hand than 77. However, when 77 hits its hand, it is SO strong that being in a multiway pot doesn't hurt it (in fact, it helps because you'd like for someone to make top pair or two pair).

Yes, KK does better than 77 in a multi way pot unimproved, but you aren't usually seeing flops multi way with 77 with the intention of playing it unimproved, whereas with KK you are. Since you are planning on playing KK unimproved, you'd rather have the pot heads up because heads up allows KK to get the most value when it is unimproved.

[Gelford]

So this has deteriotated into a discussion of limping KK UTG early in a sng .... wow

I am guessing most of you in the heated argument have no clue as to what is important and what isn't in sngs

[pipes]

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So this has deteriotated into a discussion of limping KK UTG early in a sng .... wow

I am guessing most of you in the heated argument have no clue as to what is important and what isn't in sngs

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wow, what a mighty high horse...lol

[*TT*]

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So this has deteriotated into a discussion of limping KK UTG early in a sng .... wow

I am guessing most of you in the heated argument have no clue as to what is important and what isn't in sngs

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wow, what a mighty high horse...lol

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hint - get on the horse. I have little interesting S&Gs (even though I have the book) but its plain to see that he is right. The conversation is off track.

[Rock Banke]

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So this has deteriotated into a discussion of limping KK UTG early in a sng .... wow

I am guessing most of you in the heated argument have no clue as to what is important and what isn't in sngs

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wow, what a mighty high horse...lol

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hint - get on the horse. I have little interesting S&Gs (even though I have the book) but its plain to see that he is right. The conversation is off track.

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English only at the table.

[Collin Moshman]

Hi Guys,

Both limping or raising KK/AA early in an SNG are both reasonable options. The key point is that ideally you want to get all your chips in the center pre-flop, but when you cannot accomplish this, it is important not to get wedded to your hand if you get multi-way action and do not improve. If the pot is small, you have multiple opponents, and you don't hit a set, you cannot hesitate to lay down an overpair in the face of substantial action. Particularly if deep-stacked post-flop poker is not a strong point, you should just let the hand go in these circumstances.

While the limp/raise debate is certainly a very interesting topic worth future debate, I think more detailed discussion might be better suited for an STTF thread.

Best Regards,
Collin

[pipes]

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So this has deteriotated into a discussion of limping KK UTG early in a sng .... wow

I am guessing most of you in the heated argument have no clue as to what is important and what isn't in sngs

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wow, what a mighty high horse...lol

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hint - get on the horse. I have little interesting S&Gs (even though I have the book) but its plain to see that he is right. The conversation is off track.

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huh? lol

But point taken, probably too much discussion in a review thread.

Halfway through the book and I really like it.

For a 2+2 book, this has gotten some bad vibes sent out by the STTF crowd before it was even printed. At least read the book first.

Looks like a great book CM.

[Jbrochu]

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While the limp/raise debate is certainly a very interesting topic worth future debate, I think more detailed discussion might be better suited for an STTF thread.


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Already a discussion on this hand in sttf if anybody wants to continue this cat fight... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]