Yes, we know your name is Mike Jones. We don't care.

[Jon1000]

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Kanye is a terrible rapper, imo, but an insane, sick producer. I'm not really a big rap fan, but my sense is that this is the generally accepted view?


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Al,

It really depends. Kanye's really polarizing.

He's not a great writer, but he can pull off some really clever stuff.

In terms of music seeing play on MTV, he's a lot better than most though.

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I guess if you compare him to Shop Boyz and Soulja Boy, Kanye's a genius, but in terms of objective talent, he's pretty crappy. He's basically a semi-conscious rapper rhyming over club beats in a sea of people producing pop music where the hook is twice as long as the first two verses. His beats are out of control,and I won't dispute that his lyrics are more clever than your average MTV/BET top 20er, but I bet I could walk into almost any open mic in SF and hear a few mcs with better lyrics, better breath control, and comparable stage presence.

[Patton4]

I'll completely agree that many rappers today are happy to glorify gangsta culture to "get theirs" because the money is out there for them. Do they owe anything to anybody else? Do they force anyone to buy their albums? Are they wrong for trying to get paid?

Isn't the sad fact that what some gangsta rapppers rap about is actually happening in the streets every day??? Blaming rap music is ridiculous and IMO, the easy way out. Look at the schools in poverty-stricken urban areas. You have little to no parental support, the funding is not there, and the facilities are in ill-repair compared to schools in different neighborhoods. That in its own is a recipe for failure to all children who attend these schools regardless of race. And I don't even want to get into poverty as a cause.

But in the end, people want to blame rappers for making music that in some cases connects with what these kids know and live in everyday? Please.

It is truly sad that the record companies and corporate radio owners are such idiots that rappers who could have a positive effect on youth are pushed aside for the junk that is out there right now. Why don't we blame those a**holes?

[dvo352]

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It is truly sad that the record companies and corporate radio owners are such idiots that rappers who could have a positive effect on youth are pushed aside for the junk that is out there right now. Why don't we blame those a**holes?

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This is correct... if anyone should be blamed for the state of music... its the music execs that hire these guys.

[Thug Bubbles]

Don't know much about Kanye's lyrical strength but: "I'm like a fly Malcolm X, Buy any jeans necessary" is pretty slick.


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I actually agree with his assessment of the majority of pop rap. I don't see why the point is silly. Am I missing something? I feel the similarly about the use of the word [censored] among black people.

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I think it's difficult to have an intellectually honest discussion about the effects of rap music on "the black cause" with someone who starts off by saying "rap sucks" and lives in Norway. Or hell, someone who uses the term "black cause."

Not an attack on ZeTurd btw.

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Hey, at least I used quotation marks because I felt it was a bit silly myself (edit: re "black cause")!

But yeah, you might say my perspective is very much from the outside, both geographically and culturally speaking. I don't see why that should disqualify me from having an opinion though. If my arguments are asinine it should be easy enough to shoot them down.

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Your lack of understanding the roots of Black American culture is probably why you think violent rap lyrics are so odd or out of place. It's easy for people to complain about a lack of eloquence when they didn't have several generations grow up from violence and poverty. Many like to make comparisons to, say, early German immigrants, or even poor black americans of a similar period, but those don't hold water because the social dynamics were completely different across the board. It's not just about being poor, or being black, as much as it's the culmination of dozens of factors related to raising our youth. The lyrics are a reaction to the environment around them. The language used is indicative of the society that raised them. I can only think of one other culture that has endured a similar treatment from the government and surrounding society, so it's not just a matter of pointing out Rock music as a base of comparison.

The issue is so heavily involved with centuries of social history that broad comparisons insult the depth of the 'problem'. This is ignoring the idea that Hip-Hop and Rap is intertwined with black culture in a way that cannot be said similarly for rock music and other social groups. Also, one simply has to look at the current trending away from gangster rap as a sign of changing times. I'd bet that, within 10 years, Rap will rise to a level of poetic license that holds water with similar genres of music.

I should also point out that when [censored] like this sells and is marketed as quality, it only provokes more people to mimic it.

[dvo352]

To blame rap for kids committing crimes is crazy. Do the kids not think? Are the parents not telling them that crimes are wrong? Are they too stupid to realize murdering and robbing aren't exactly legal, let alone the moral reasons for not killing and robbing? If they are that naive... then dont we need to change EVERYTHING from TV to movies to music to art? Or shelter the kids in order to prevent them from thinking certain things are ok? I mean... that doesnt sound neccesary does it?

[Jon1000]

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Isn't the sad fact that what some gangsta rapppers rap about is actually happening in the streets every day??? Blaming rap music is ridiculous and IMO, the easy way out. Look at the schools in poverty-stricken urban areas. You have little to no parental support, the funding is not there, and the facilities are in ill-repair compared to schools in different neighborhoods. That in its own is a recipe for failure to all children who attend these schools regardless of race. And I don't even want to get into poverty as a cause.

But in the end, people want to blame rappers for making music that in some cases connects with what these kids know and live in everyday? Please.

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Nowhere did either ZeT or myself directly blame rappers for crime. That's seems to be a separate argument. We are saying that for the most part, popular rap promotes a culture that glorifies violence, misogyny, wasting money, etc. This culture lends itself to promoting the wrong ideals in a community that already seems to have many social problems. The fact that this major industry is largely propped up by white america complicates the issue. the guy in the blog i linked above says it much better than me so:

"Ludacris and Ice Cube aren’t the reason for Black America’s misery, pain, and self-destruction. What they have done, however, is written the soundtrack to it, and profited mightily in the process. The debate they have with Oprah isn’t about their right to do so, as no one is saying that Gangsta rappers should be censored. We live in a democratic society and if the gangsta rapper wants to profit from someone else's pain and if the gangsta rap fan wants to dance to it, it is their right. However, the debate with Oprah is about is Black America’s (or at least the vast majority of Black America that doesn’t buy hip hop records) right to turn away from that Ludacris, Ice Cube, and that gangsta rap fan in disgust."

[dibbs]

The ratio of terrible rap/hiphop to good rap/hiphop is pretty similar to what it was 10 years ago IMO, you just need to go out of your way to look for it or be lucky enough to stumble upon it.

It feels like the lows are much lower now and the best isn't as good as the best once was, but that could be because most people are suckers for nostalgia, myself included.

[Dids]

God I hate oot hip-hop threads.

Here: Go listen to Hangar 18.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...endid=29102002

[Jeff W]

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It is truly sad that the record companies and corporate radio owners are such idiots that rappers who could have a positive effect on youth are pushed aside for the junk that is out there right now. Why don't we blame those a**holes?

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This is correct... if anyone should be blamed for the state of music... its the music execs that hire these guys.

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People who buy [censored] music are to blame for the state of music. The execs and artists are just fulfilling the demand for trash.

[dvo352]

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It is truly sad that the record companies and corporate radio owners are such idiots that rappers who could have a positive effect on youth are pushed aside for the junk that is out there right now. Why don't we blame those a**holes?

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This is correct... if anyone should be blamed for the state of music... its the music execs that hire these guys.

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People who buy [censored] music are to blame for the state of music. The execs and artists are just fulfilling the demand for trash.

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You can sell people anything... Execs control whats going out and what doesnt. But you are partially right in it that this trash does sell. So... I blame both the idiots who buy it and the execs for not putting out more quality artists.