NL25 QQ-fold this turn?

machine · #1 08-19-2007, 04:19 PM

villan was 22.7/0/3.5 - 66 hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($30.95)
Button ($29.30)
SB ($24.40)
BB ($25)
Hero ($25)
MP1 ($23.10)
MP2 ($43.30)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, MP2 calls $1, 4 folds.

Flop: ($2.35) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $1.9, MP2 raises to $3.8, Hero calls $1.90.

Turn: ($9.95) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $6, Hero?

bkar824 · #2 08-19-2007, 04:39 PM

Ugh. Being OOP makes the flop call pretty bad imo. You have to make up your mind by there whether you want to get all your money in the pot. Calling, then checking the turn will kill you in the long run, because it makes the decision that much harder (bigger pot, more committed already), and it's an easy decision to screw up. When you call the min-raise OOP on the flop you're likely playing for your stack on the later streets (did I mention you'll be doing it OOP), which I'm assuming is something that you don't want to do here (especially OOP). Make the decision to stay in or get out when the pot is small. It's better to get bluffed off a small pot then to hang around and get bluffed or stacked in a big pot!

I can't see you being ahead to much of anything here. Have you seen him minraise in position before? The only hand you realistically beat is JJ. 99,77 is simply not going to min-raise you to get you to fold. Tough spot. He hasn't raised at all in 66 hands, so it's even possible for him to have KK or AA. You're likely up against a set here, and I would lay it down to the min-raise.

ayurice · #3 08-19-2007, 04:41 PM

I'd rr the flop. His AF and pf range mean that he could have a ton of hands that you beat. You can re-evaluate if he stays aggressive.

ship_it_trebek · #4 08-19-2007, 05:58 PM

3bet flop fold to a shove, as played I guess you need a fold here.

CalledDownLight · #5 08-19-2007, 06:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3bet flop fold to a shove, as played I guess you need a fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you 3bet the flop you have to be ready to call a shove.

machine · #6 08-19-2007, 06:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3bet flop fold to a shove, as played I guess you need a fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you 3bet the flop you have to be ready to call a shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly so how do you play this?

Larude · #7 08-19-2007, 07:10 PM

I don't think it is wrong to threebet in this spot and then to fold to a shove. I mean if we threebet here we are saying we can beat JJ, so if he shoves that means we are pretty much dead... If villain calls the threebet and we check to him on the turn and he bets in that spot we are also pretty much beat. One thing though: If villain calls and checks the turn we have almost an obliged call on the river or a blockbet to make that is a very difficult track which brings more money into the pot we can loose if we are behind. Maybe the best line is to just call his raise and bet out on the turn and then fold to a shove or check/fold the river if he calls and bets the river. He would need to be a great player to bet with AT or JJ in that spot and fold us out... Brrr difficult

I see lines like this very often and it is indeed why being OOP sucks, I hope someone will write a nice article about it [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]: how to play OOP against different villains when they minraise the rainbowflop and drawflops...

DawnToDusk · #8 08-19-2007, 09:11 PM

If you are folding the turn then why are you calling the flop raise? You're behind to AA/KK or a set here. Your opponent is very aggro and could easily be doing this with AT or KT. I push here on the turn. If he turns over AA or KK I would make a note that he doesn't reraise these hands all the time PF and if he has a set he plays fast.

machine · #9 08-19-2007, 09:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you are folding the turn then why are you calling the flop raise? You're behind to AA/KK or a set here. Your opponent is very aggro and could easily be doing this with AT or KT. I push here on the turn. If he turns over AA or KK I would make a note that he doesn't reraise these hands all the time PF and if he has a set he plays fast.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bad advice, firstly i am more aggro than this villan and i wouldnt make this play with hardly anything worse than QQ, secondly what does pushing achieve? nothing calls us that we beat.

Thirdly i called to see his response to the turn card etc, up to 1/2 pot id call and re-evaluate.

DawnToDusk · #10 08-19-2007, 09:17 PM

I don't see what the big problem is here? As far as I can tell vill is relatively unknown with no prior history. If that is the case then why aren't we pushing this on the turn? It seems like everyone finds themself without a lot of pot equity in this spot when in fact we could have a lot.

So with so little information I think I would take the more optimistic view and say I have good pot equity here and maybe some fold equity too and will shove the turn. I would hate to get scared out of money just in a situation where I probably have good pot equity just because vill is unknown. If he flips over a better hand make a note and move on.

Also concerning a line where we bet out on the turn and get raised by vill. Are we really folding on the turn in that spot? You will probably be getting 2-to-1.