Two Plus Two Newer Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Newer Archives > 2+2 Communities > The Lounge: Discussion+Review

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 11-29-2007, 02:28 AM
Blarg Blarg is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Who is Fistface?
Posts: 27,473
Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

By the way, I was choking up reading the rest of your post. It is not easy growing up and living in a culture in which simply being of a different mind, no matter how tolerant, kind, open, accepting and benevolent, is reviled, and America is definitely that kind of place and rushing ardently to be more so. I had a lot of hard times as a kid and have often felt excluded since. Thanks for manifesting the true spirit of a Christian. I wish more Christians would understand the spirit behind the words of a great religion rather than use those words so callously and brutally as weapons and excuses. I have tremendous respect for true Christians, but they are so incredibly hard to find. A real Christian is an athlete of the soul who I would find it very hard not to admire. It would be wonderful and one of my greatest wishes of all to find more people to admire.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-29-2007, 02:30 AM
Blarg Blarg is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Who is Fistface?
Posts: 27,473
Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

[ QUOTE ]
here is an article on Christian Fundamentalism in the military

and Blackwater is a paramilitary organization run by a secretive (or rather out of the spotlight, until recently) right wing fundamentalist named Erik Prince.

I would also point out there is a misnomer in the article in that I differentiate between Fundamentalism and Evangelical Christianity - Dominionism is a strain, which suggests Christians have the right and obligation to take over Civic and Governmental institutions and rewrite the laws to fit the Biblical Code.

I've been studying a bit recently on Dietrich Bonhoffer and the confessing church - (background - DB was a pastor who was an active member of the resistance of the Nazi Regime in WWII) - and many of the members that resisted the Nazi party did so under the belief that devotion to Christ superceeded devotion to one's citizenship or Military service. One can't read the Sermon on the Mount and take Jesus to heart and then go out and kill his fellow man.

On the other hand, a great many established churches stated Romans 13 should imply military service if called upon, but I doubt in retrospect they could argue God's will was done by serving the Nazi Party - but Hitler often invoked the almighty in his speeches and led many of them to believe he was also a good Christian.

rb

[/ QUOTE ]

Interestingly, there has been an ongoing and fairly ridiculous attempt to paint Hitler as anti-religious. This is contrary to the historical record, and an anti-relgious fascist would be unimaginable.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-29-2007, 02:33 AM
Blarg Blarg is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Who is Fistface?
Posts: 27,473
Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Also, 'Under God' was put in the Pledge during the Eisenhower Administration as an affront to Communism. The founders acknowledged a Creator so I don't have a problem with God being mentioned as long as the government doesn't mandate church attendance or belief in said God.


[/ QUOTE ]

Article 19, section 1 of the Arkansas Constitution: Atheists disqualified from holding office or testifying as witness.
No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court.


I don't think a lot of people no this, but if you are an Atheists you cant run for office Arkansas and a few other states.So in essence the government of those states are mandating church attendance and a belief in a God.

I wonder how people who believe in god would act if the shoe was on the other foot and they were not allowed to run for office in a state unless they denied god.I imagine that it would not go over to well with the fundamentalist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I were more surprised by this. But if true, it is merely the legislative embodiment of what is already clear -- neither Christians in general nor this supposedly free and unprejudiced nation are willing to live without prejudice, contempt, and the elimination of civil rights.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-29-2007, 03:16 AM
MrWookie MrWookie is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Treating my drinking problem
Posts: 17,411
Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, I was choking up reading the rest of your post. It is not easy growing up and living in a culture in which simply being of a different mind, no matter how tolerant, kind, open, accepting and benevolent, is reviled, and America is definitely that kind of place and rushing ardently to be more so. I had a lot of hard times as a kid and have often felt excluded since. Thanks for manifesting the true spirit of a Christian. I wish more Christians would understand the spirit behind the words of a great religion rather than use those words so callously and brutally as weapons and excuses. I have tremendous respect for true Christians, but they are so incredibly hard to find. A real Christian is an athlete of the soul who I would find it very hard not to admire. It would be wonderful and one of my greatest wishes of all to find more people to admire.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blarg,

Thank you. Your words here mean a lot to me, too. I confess, every time I get on this subject, your words about how religion is a perfectly crafted vehicle for hate from another thread in here echo menacingly in my brain. I went off on quite the tirade then, and it was echoes of the same that, along w/ Tarheel, prompted this latest bit. The above pleases me no end. That someone who'd written such a biting denunciation of Christianity does indeed have not only an acceptance, but an admiration of Christianity as it should be has me a little choked up, too. Unfortunately, I don't exactly live up to your ideal. I am still excluding and unloving far too often. I can't beat human nature all the time, but I can at least help others see what we're both striving toward.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11-29-2007, 03:31 AM
ChipWrecked ChipWrecked is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: \"You been drinkin\', Santa?\"
Posts: 6,311
Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

I grew up in Arkansas so it's hard for me to know how long this stuff has been going on in the rest of the country. We had snake handlers and tongue talkers around all the time.

When I went to the University of Arkansas in the early 80's, we used to get baked and go party at Sister Cindy's rallies on campus.

Has anyone else here ever seen this woman and/or her now-husband Svengali Brother Jed on their campus? I think they stick to mainly the Midwest and South. Funny stuff. I have fond memories of the good times we had hooting it up with Cindy ranting about 'whores' and 'whoremongers'.

This clip gives a bit of a taste, but you'd have to see Cindy live w/o hubby in tow to really appreciate what a hilarious whack job she is.

I don't suppose this furthers the discussion of the thread any but I had a good time reminiscing about the old days being told I was going to Hell for smoking dope and fornicating.

"Hey Cindy, can you point me to some of these whores? I haven't fornicated nearly as much as I'd like the past couple months."
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-29-2007, 03:51 AM
Dominic Dominic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Vegas
Posts: 12,772
Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

Wook, if all Christians were like you I'd find a lot more to admire about religion.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-29-2007, 03:52 AM
batair batair is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: he not busy being born is busy dying
Posts: 240
Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Also, 'Under God' was put in the Pledge during the Eisenhower Administration as an affront to Communism. The founders acknowledged a Creator so I don't have a problem with God being mentioned as long as the government doesn't mandate church attendance or belief in said God.


[/ QUOTE ]

Article 19, section 1 of the Arkansas Constitution: Atheists disqualified from holding office or testifying as witness.
No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court.


I don't think a lot of people no this, but if you are an Atheists you cant run for office Arkansas and a few other states.So in essence the government of those states are mandating church attendance and a belief in a God.

I wonder how people who believe in god would act if the shoe was on the other foot and they were not allowed to run for office in a state unless they denied god.I imagine that it would not go over to well with the fundamentalist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I were more surprised by this. But if true, it is merely the legislative embodiment of what is already clear -- neither Christians in general nor this supposedly free and unprejudiced nation are willing to live without prejudice, contempt, and the elimination of civil rights.

[/ QUOTE ]

About half way down the page are most of the laws that are against atheist holding office.I no it's wiki but its kind of late and i need to get some sleep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrim...ainst_atheists

The laws discriminating against atheists are mostly older laws that are unconstitutional and would be overturned if they were challenged.I do believe though if fundamentalist's had their way these laws would be upheld.Not that it really matters it's clear that nonbelievers could never get elected to any major office anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-29-2007, 03:54 AM
Blarg Blarg is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Who is Fistface?
Posts: 27,473
Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

That you even try makes you in your heart among the best of people, and I thank and respect you for it. A lot of us are trying with everything we have in us and everything we can hope to eventually find within us, and it's not always easy. I don't think that struggle is any different for Christians than it is for atheists than it is for buddhists or Islamists or anyone. It's basically our life's mission on this planet.

And I wish we would all forgive and encourage each other in that mutual, basic human mission and wish each other the greatest possible success and understanding. I am sure some failure is as inevitable as some success, but I believe we can all find and claim our own individual will to make things better and more in the spirit of Christ as I understand Him. I believe the Christian mission even more than that of other revealed religions makes central and demands the exercise of our own free will to embody the spirit of Christ, and I can't imagine that spirit as one of exclusion, ignorance, or hate. I don't believe Christianity could possibly have gained a foothold in the world, much less preeminence in the Western world from the start of a few scragglers, if it were.

Anyway, I am rambling. I respect the sincerity of your thoughts and goodwill, and it is refreshing that I feel at ease with the idea that you may respect the sincerity of mine. These ideas should be traded back and forth so much more freely, and it is one of my greatest sadnesses regarding public life that they at best have little currency.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-29-2007, 04:37 AM
tarheeljks tarheeljks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: stone that the builder refused
Posts: 4,134
Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

great post wookie. i didn't mean to suggest that fundamentalist christians operated in the spirit of christianity. i just think that if they were to draw the line in the sand, many christians who view themselves as socially moderate/liberal would fall in line-- referendums regarding gay marriage come to mind.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:36 AM
diebitter diebitter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Married With Children
Posts: 24,596
Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
idk if i would consider it to be "on the rise." there are plenty of people who are not members of the fundamentalist right, but would side with them b/c of shared religious beliefs if you drew a line in the sand. many of these people do not harbor the extremism of fundamentalists, but in the end their religion trumps all.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's another side to that coin here, Tarheel. I consider myself a devout Christian, but in many regards, I consider the fundamentalist right "Christians" in name only. If you look at much of their politics, much of it is 100% contrary to the actual words of Christ. "Fundamental" tenets such as "love they neighbor," and "love your enemies," have been lost on many people who call themselves fundamentalists. In many, many regards, the fundamentalist right acts like the Biblical Pharisees that Jesus railed on time after time for focusing on their own self-righteousness instead of loving thy neighbor, even if that neighbor sticks his dick in the wrong hole or plays poker or worships differently or even worships another god. Hell, I think even atheists have a better grasp of the story of the Good Samaritan and its implications than the average fundamentalist. The calls to arms of the fundamentalist right are so befuddling that I have to wonder if they've ever actually read the Bible they claim to tout. Why is it that the pinko hippies the fundamentalists would label as heathens are the pacifists and the fundamentalists are the ones leading the battle charge? Why do they completely ignore Jesus' words to "give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what is God's?" Separation of church and state is actually prescribed by Jesus himself, but too many Christians miss or forget this.

One thing to bear in mind is that if every you hear about a Christian drawing a line in the sand, you can be pretty sure he's not acting in a Christ-like manner. When did Jesus ever draw a line in the sand or send away someone who came to him, even if that person was a theif, a prostitute, a heretic (Samaritan), a leper, or any other manner of sinner? Jesus does say that he will bring division into friendships, communities, and even families, but that's him saying that the forces of the world will exile Christians, not that the Christians should be drawing lines in the sand and casting out people who aren't pure enough.

This topic always gets me riled up. I'm always half-tempted to go through every single Bible passage that some politically-minded fundamentalist has construed to have some political implications and then just tear their words to shreds by going through the rest of the book that they call holy and showing how severely they've missed the point.

I'll close with the one idea I hope everyone who reads this takes to heart: the abuses of the fundamentalist right are not a fault of Christianity or of Biblical teachings. Not all Christians think like them, and it would not be the conclusion of any reasonable person who read the Bible, the whole Bible, in context, that the teachings therein would naturally lead to the creation of a group with the political goal of forcing, sometimes violently, their brand of righteousness on a morally wayward world. No. The abuses of the fundamentalist right come from people misunderstanding or misusing the words of the Bible in a manner completely contrary to its most central commandments for their own political or economic gain. Does the context of Christianity make it easier for people with their own gain in mind to abuse the system? There are reasonable arguments for yes, but I would argue that there are countless examples throughout history of people (ab)using secular "us versus them" propaganda that takes advantage of weak-minded people in much the same way that the fundamentalist right does. There will always be demagogues, and there will always be people who fall for them. Christianity is just one system some of today's demagogues are abusing for their own gain. Patriotism are fear-mongering are two secular means for demagogues to rise to power that they're also getting a lot of mileage out of in this day and age. Christianity is not supposed to be a demagoguery, so do not lump all Christians in with those who abuse it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like this post. While I'm agnostic (it's not that I do or don't believe, I just don't care one way or another - it's enough to try and lead a good life, in my philosophy: trying to fathom the universe's secrets is something that can wait till I've fathomed myself), I am very comfortable with root Christianity, as its most fundamental principles of 'love one another' are in deep accord with my own humanist principles.

Likewise, I never feel happy to accept the blanket assertions that religions are the root of all sorts of world problems, because it blindly sweeps away all the good things
(and I believe there are many) done daily in the name of one God or another. We all know about the bad, but we forget the good.


I loathe deliberate institutionalised ignorance like in those videos though. That's child neglect at best and abuse at worst, in my book.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.