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  #41  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:55 PM
vmacosta vmacosta is offline
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Default Re: in over my head

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Definitely don't 3-bet preflop FWIW.

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Wow, you say that with a lot of authority and from what I've heard you are a very successful player, so there must be something I am missing. What is your cutoff for 3-betting Ax here and why?
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  #42  
Old 11-28-2007, 09:02 PM
HOWMANY HOWMANY is offline
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Default Re: in over my head

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c/r. sometimes 4bet if they 3bet, sometimes call down, sometimes call and fold later. i would sometimes call on that flop though because i would actually call with an 8 or 5 there bc people are much more willing to fire on the turn after that flop and walk into a c/r. im also much more likely to c/c a draw on that flop in order to c/r turn.

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Crazy talk!! (You're talking about 8-5-2 right?)

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yes 852
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  #43  
Old 11-28-2007, 11:54 PM
ALL1N ALL1N is offline
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Default Re: in over my head

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Definitely don't 3-bet preflop FWIW.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you say that with a lot of authority and from what I've heard you are a very successful player, so there must be something I am missing. What is your cutoff for 3-betting Ax here and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unimproved postflop, with A7o and the lead, you'll rarely be getting better hands to fold or worse hands to call (incorrectly), meaning that if you reraise preflop it's got to be for value. Your equity with A7o vs a button opening range is around 52-53%, which generally isn't a big enough edge to push for value.


You know how when you're on the turn/river you need well above 50% equity to raise purely for value (67% when they're always reraising correctly and never folding)? The same applies preflop, in that you need well above 50% to reraise for value because you re-open the betting (the fact that he/she may delay reraising better hands by opting not to cap is meaningless if we're going to autobet the flop anyway).


So basically I'm saying the nature of A7o is that reraising = value raise, not a bluff, and that A7o isn't strong enough to value raise.


Of course if you had QJs, hand with similar equity vs a button opening range, the benefit of taking the lead is that you'll frequently bluff out better hands postflop.


In answer to which Ax I'd 3-bet, I'd only do it if I felt that the value was there - my test is whether I'd be able to correctly value bet the river unimproved much. So probably AQ/AJ (which are around 60% equity in this spot), but if the opponent doesn't check behind the flop much, then I'll tend to call these hands preflop anyway.
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  #44  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:34 AM
piggity piggity is offline
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Default Re: in over my head

[ QUOTE ]
In answer to which Ax I'd 3-bet, I'd only do it if I felt that the value was there - my test is whether I'd be able to correctly value bet the river unimproved much. So probably AQ/AJ (which are around 60% equity in this spot), but if the opponent doesn't check behind the flop much, then I'll tend to call these hands preflop anyway.

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Now I actually feel like I'm in over my head. Not 3-betting A9/AT+ here (as the default) will sound heretic to many, I would guess.
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  #45  
Old 11-29-2007, 01:00 AM
HOWMANY HOWMANY is offline
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Default Re: in over my head

fwiw for offsoot hands I 3bet AQ/AK 95%+, AJ prob 80% (depends a ton on what kind of game), AT prob 40-60% (again depends on type of game) and A9 or worse very rarely. I 3bet the same kind of people with A7 that I would 3bet with A9.
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  #46  
Old 11-29-2007, 01:57 AM
bicyclekick bicyclekick is offline
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Default Re: in over my head

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Definitely don't 3-bet preflop FWIW.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you say that with a lot of authority and from what I've heard you are a very successful player, so there must be something I am missing. What is your cutoff for 3-betting Ax here and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unimproved postflop, with A7o and the lead, you'll rarely be getting better hands to fold or worse hands to call (incorrectly), meaning that if you reraise preflop it's got to be for value. Your equity with A7o vs a button opening range is around 52-53%, which generally isn't a big enough edge to push for value.


You know how when you're on the turn/river you need well above 50% equity to raise purely for value (67% when they're always reraising correctly and never folding)? The same applies preflop, in that you need well above 50% to reraise for value because you re-open the betting (the fact that he/she may delay reraising better hands by opting not to cap is meaningless if we're going to autobet the flop anyway).


So basically I'm saying the nature of A7o is that reraising = value raise, not a bluff, and that A7o isn't strong enough to value raise.


Of course if you had QJs, hand with similar equity vs a button opening range, the benefit of taking the lead is that you'll frequently bluff out better hands postflop.


In answer to which Ax I'd 3-bet, I'd only do it if I felt that the value was there - my test is whether I'd be able to correctly value bet the river unimproved much. So probably AQ/AJ (which are around 60% equity in this spot), but if the opponent doesn't check behind the flop much, then I'll tend to call these hands preflop anyway.

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This is one of the best posts I've seen on here in a long time minus the fact that I really don't want my opponents understanding this.

Keeping pots small when out of position is a very important concept most up and coming players don't fully understand, partially probably because they haven't played enough of them vs tough opponents who will fully take advantage of their positional advantage.

They have been beating games because while it's a mistake, many of their opponents are making the same mistake plus many other larger mistakes. I really feel like it's one of the main things holding a lot of otherwise good players back.
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  #47  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:58 AM
Bill Haverchuck Bill Haverchuck is offline
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Default Re: in over my head

[ QUOTE ]


Unimproved postflop, with A7o and the lead, you'll rarely be getting better hands to fold or worse hands to call (incorrectly), meaning that if you reraise preflop it's got to be for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't a major factor in taking the lead that you bet/drag instead of c/f way more often when neither of you improve?
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  #48  
Old 12-02-2007, 02:01 AM
Mr.Busto Mr.Busto is offline
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Default Re: in over my head

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[ QUOTE ]
the problem is that we dont know if villain is going to give up on the flop, turn or river with his bluffs and we just leave ourselves guessing. i dont know exactly how many bets will go in ahead vs behind but the certain thing is that more bets will go in when behind and our opponent has pretty solid control over when that will happen.

this can be easily turned into an "i know he knows i know" leveling thing where he knows you must have A high to c/c flop. thus if he bets turn he either beats A high or expects us to fold it. thus if we call turn we are announcing we are showdown bound so if he fires river again we must conclude that he expects us to call which means we should fold. but perhaps he knows this so his range also includes bluffs. blah blah blah.

the simple and best way to play it is fold now. flop sucks for our hand and allows him to outplay us easily. i can't imagine calling on this flop. whether we put in .5, 1.5 or 2.5 bets when ahead, the certain thing is that we will put in 2.5 when behind when showdown bound. not gonna waste time to stove but im sure that this hand is not looking good on this flop.

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Exactly.

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sick
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