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  #1  
Old 11-27-2007, 03:43 AM
Praxising Praxising is offline
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Default Fantasy Ethics Question

I know this isn't usually the area for this sort of thing, but I know people here and have an actual reason for asking related to my Razz game, so bear with for a sec....

Pretend...you get hit by a falling brick (real brick) and when you wake up you find you have acquired a bit of psychic seeing. That is: if you concentrate on a piece of paper, or a card, you get an image of what is printed on the other side. It even works online.

Now, you aren't cheating in any traditional sense, you have not hacked a system, or even asked to be given this ability, it just happened. Do you use it to make millions of dollars playing poker? Or do you wear specially-coated glasses when you play that interfere with this special sight, because you feel like a cheat, otherwise?
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  #2  
Old 11-27-2007, 07:05 AM
Raxxmataxx Raxxmataxx is offline
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Default Re: Fantasy Ethics Question

At first I thought it was unethical, but thinking about it further it seems like it's similiar to just being incredibly smart or an extremely good reader.

I think the more thorny issue is concerning disclosure and hustling people to play. Something which actually do come up during real play.

No matter what conclusion I came to regarding the ethics I'd use it to win millions. When it comes to ensuring a life of economic indepence for me and my loved ones behaving ethically towards strangers have very little weight.
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  #3  
Old 11-27-2007, 03:22 PM
Truthiness24 Truthiness24 is offline
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Default Re: Fantasy Ethics Question

[ QUOTE ]
When it comes to ensuring a life of economic indepence for me and my loved ones behaving ethically towards strangers have very little weight.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you still have to live with yourself. There are plenty of ways to make money ethically. Your sentiment feels morally bankrupt to me. It's hard to teach what's right to one's kids when one is willing to do anything for a buck.

I attacked the question differently. I'm not convinced that this is cheating. After all, anyone can bonk themselves with a brick and get the same powers. (Right?)
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  #4  
Old 11-27-2007, 03:28 PM
tinkerman tinkerman is offline
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Default Re: Fantasy Ethics Question

An interesting question. To me I'd have to pick up the glasses. To me poker is about playing better than your opponents, the competition and the winning. I can't imagine getting any pleasure through being able to see other people's cards and the game would be boring.

Though I am saying this from a position of relative financial health. My answer may be different if the money would take me out of financial hardship.
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  #5  
Old 11-27-2007, 04:34 PM
RustyBrooks RustyBrooks is offline
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Default Re: Fantasy Ethics Question

OPs example seems to cross a line that we'd all love to skirt. The best poker players can put their opponents on hands quite accurately, using skills they have, that their opponents do not. We just call this good poker, totally fair, etc. OP is talking about another potential gift that she would have and not the other players.

The reason this crosses the line is that there is no room for a defense to it. Against a gifted reader I can turn away, act crazy, wear sunglasses and put a hood over my face, alter my betting patterns, temporarily deviate from optimal strategy, or use any means of deception I like. Against someone with the ability to see my hole cards there is nothing I can do.

Personally I come across something like this all the time. Say, there's an old bastard next to me who not only doesn't protect his cards, but lifts them up a foot off the table and holds them perpendicular so that everyone 3 seats in either direction can see them. I tell him twice that I can see his cards, if that doesn't change anything, then I have to assume that he doesn't care, and I'm not going to mention it again. And if I can see his cards, I'll use that information.
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  #6  
Old 11-27-2007, 05:29 PM
roggles roggles is offline
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Default Re: Fantasy Ethics Question

I would enter huge donkaments and not play Razz. I expect to get blinded out
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  #7  
Old 11-27-2007, 08:40 PM
Raxxmataxx Raxxmataxx is offline
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Default Re: Fantasy Ethics Question

[ QUOTE ]
But you still have to live with yourself. There are plenty of ways to make money ethically. Your sentiment feels morally bankrupt to me. It's hard to teach what's right to one's kids when one is willing to do anything for a buck.

[/ QUOTE ]Well, I specifically wasn't willing to do anything for a buck.

Which is why I don't cheat at poker. At most it'd gain me a couple of thousands a month. At least until I got very good at it. And then it's not worth the douchebag feeling, or the risk of getting caught. To be honest the latter is probably more important, I don't know that I would give up even small unethical edges if it were completely risk free.

But the described situation is much, much better. We're talking about extremely low risk coupled with obscene amounts of money. At that point, screw ethics, as long as I'm not killing anyone.

We're talking about gaining a few million dollars by transfering them from a bunch of gambling degens and poker sites. As sins goes, it's bad, but there's far worse out there.

So what I'm talking about isn't doing anything for a buck. It's moderately screwing over others for financial security otherwise unavailble. And frankly I'd want my children to do the same.
[ QUOTE ]
I attacked the question differently. I'm not convinced that this is cheating. After all, anyone can bonk themselves with a brick and get the same powers. (Right?)

[/ QUOTE ]While true, it's also true that anyone potentially could install a trojan or play with marked cards. This is a situation where it's pretty clear no one would play you if they knew your ability and that it would be forbidden in the rules if it were known to exist.
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  #8  
Old 11-28-2007, 02:00 AM
Andy B Andy B is offline
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Default Re: Fantasy Ethics Question

There are few things that I loathe more than getting into hypothetical arguments, but here I go. I wouldn't use this ability. It's just too sleazy. And if you did have this ability, you might be able to come up with something even more profitable than fleecing poker players.
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  #9  
Old 11-28-2007, 02:02 AM
Andy B Andy B is offline
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Default Re: Fantasy Ethics Question

The problem with your approach is that you use the information you gain against the other players. That is what makes looking at the other guy's cards unethical. I warn my opponents every time. I didn't always.
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  #10  
Old 11-28-2007, 02:18 AM
chucky chucky is offline
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Default Re: Fantasy Ethics Question

[ QUOTE ]
And if you did have this ability, you might be able to come up with something even more profitable than fleecing poker players.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean like finding WMD? Im sure OP could get quite a nice salary from NE if he shows them this ability.
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