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  #1  
Old 11-26-2007, 04:03 PM
Noir_Desir Noir_Desir is offline
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Location: Hilbert Space
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Default Razz: Huge pot

No reads on villains because its the first razz orbit since they sat down. Is the jamming justified or did i do too much? I tried to force the third guy out but it didn't work.

7th is a valuebet once both of them check, because they won't ever fold in a pot of this size, right?

HORSE - Razz ($3/$6), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.58 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 3: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 6: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (4.58 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___calls___calls

5th Street - (8.29 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls___calls

6th Street - (20.29 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

River - (23.29 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls

Total pot: (26.29 BB)
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  #2  
Old 11-26-2007, 04:16 PM
Ayodeji13 Ayodeji13 is offline
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Default Re: Razz: Huge pot

everything seems fine, nh
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  #3  
Old 11-26-2007, 04:45 PM
Toronto86er Toronto86er is offline
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Default Re: Razz: Huge pot

Why are we reraising 4th?

I'm not arguing with it, just curious.

Is it to isolate vs the king which we have beat? Are we actually a favourite at that point?
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  #4  
Old 11-26-2007, 05:15 PM
SGspecial SGspecial is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Doctor Razz
Posts: 1,209
Default Re: Razz: Huge pot

[ QUOTE ]
Why are we reraising 4th?

I'm not arguing with it, just curious.

Is it to isolate vs the king which we have beat? Are we actually a favourite at that point?

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you say 3-sided coin flip? You're going to get the pot HU here very rarely considering the action, so might as well put on the brakes and save a little deception.
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  #5  
Old 11-26-2007, 08:24 PM
Ayodeji13 Ayodeji13 is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 109
Default Re: Razz: Huge pot

i would jam 4rth because in most cases its a coin flip, but there will be cases where 1 player is calling rough, if so, then you prolly have a small equity edge and should build the pot.

now if i'm totally wrong here some1 please step in & correct me, i don't wanna go around giving erroneous advice
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  #6  
Old 11-26-2007, 11:53 PM
Raxxmataxx Raxxmataxx is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 70
Default Re: Razz: Huge pot

[ QUOTE ]
Can you say 3-sided coin flip? You're going to get the pot HU here very rarely considering the action, so might as well put on the brakes and save a little deception.

[/ QUOTE ]I think you're giving them too much credit by that hand range.

The mere fact that they played with a T and K as upcards makes it many times more likely they would play very non-smooth hands than usual due to either being terrible or not realizing what game they're playing.

So I think we do have some equity edge on average. I'm not sure when you think any deception gained by calling would pay off.

And the three-bet may well have had the effect of knocking out a player with good equity, since 44 folded. So there certainly seem to be some utility to that.

Anyone else considering raising 6th?

There's some small possibility of the low board being paired and a lot of equity in getting rid of KQ63. And there's also some possibility of him playing another game and drawing dead, in which case it's a valuebet.

I'm leaning towards it not being such a good idea, but with a 20BB pot gaining even a little extra equity is huge.
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  #7  
Old 11-27-2007, 03:28 AM
Praxising Praxising is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Razz R Us
Posts: 831
Default Re: Razz: Huge pot

[ QUOTE ]
7th is a valuebet once both of them check, because they won't ever fold in a pot of this size, right?

[/ QUOTE ]I have a question. I'm trying to figure out why you would "value bet" what might very easily be the worst hand? I mean, you have an 8, no one's board is giving away a ton of info, checking doesn't mean they have no hand, they just aren't sure what everyone has. Any 85 on up beats you.

Seat 2 raised on 4th with what was, at the moment, the worst hand. So I'd be giving him credit for A2-type hole cards. When he raises again on 5th, I'm thinking he has a pretty good 6 draw. (Unless this was .50/1, in which case he could have a King and a pair and do the same thing!) Anyway, I may not understand the concept, but I thought value-betting referred to believing oneself in the lead and trying to get paid off. So, if you thought you were in the lead, why did you think that?
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  #8  
Old 11-27-2007, 10:08 AM
SGspecial SGspecial is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Doctor Razz
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Default Re: Razz: Huge pot

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're giving them too much credit by that hand range.

The mere fact that they played with a T and K as upcards makes it many times less likely they would play very non-smooth hands than usual except when not realizing what game they're playing.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

[ QUOTE ]
So I think we do have some equity edge on average. I'm not sure when you think any deception gained by calling would pay off.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please see this post for the answer.
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  #9  
Old 11-27-2007, 10:15 AM
Noir_Desir Noir_Desir is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 355
Default Re: Razz: Huge pot

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
7th is a valuebet once both of them check, because they won't ever fold in a pot of this size, right?

[/ QUOTE ]I have a question. I'm trying to figure out why you would "value bet" what might very easily be the worst hand? I mean, you have an 8, no one's board is giving away a ton of info, checking doesn't mean they have no hand, they just aren't sure what everyone has. Any 85 on up beats you.

Seat 2 raised on 4th with what was, at the moment, the worst hand. So I'd be giving him credit for A2-type hole cards. When he raises again on 5th, I'm thinking he has a pretty good 6 draw. (Unless this was .50/1, in which case he could have a King and a pair and do the same thing!) Anyway, I may not understand the concept, but I thought value-betting referred to believing oneself in the lead and trying to get paid off. So, if you thought you were in the lead, why did you think that?

[/ QUOTE ]
3/6 HORSE plays like 0,5/1 at times [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Seat 7 obviously is no danger. He bet 6th and would certainly bet a 7 on 7th. After his check, i strongly think seat 2 should bet any decent hand because the danger of me checking behind when i miss is too big but i will pay off a lot if i catch a nine or a ten. And he is an aggressive player as shown by his marginal jamming on the earlier streets. So i figured that i have a decent chance of having the best hand, plus i risk one bet to win two because both this guy will pay off if they hit anything T or better because i could be bluffing given my board.
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  #10  
Old 11-27-2007, 10:18 AM
Noir_Desir Noir_Desir is offline
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Default Re: Razz: Huge pot

The results by the way were just awesome:

Seat 7 had A7____J ,bet 6th with his two pair and paif off 7th with jack high.

Seat 2 had 24____K and overcalled 7th with Q high.
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