8/b - Reraise with wheel draw on 3rd?

[getfunky]

On 3rd st, Seat 7 is a solid player who might fold for 2 bets after limping and another player limped with a 7 as well. I decided to trap and not reraise, encouraging multiway action. However, based on the 4th st. action Seat 7 probably would have called anyway, as it looks like he had a str8 draw. I ended up trapping myself and made a bad call on 4th st: I caught a rough card that was suited, but the suit was dead, yet I donated in middle position and was raised.

There are advantages to being the only low draw, such as the 8 would have been a good card, whereas multiway it stunk .. both lows had a 7 door so I thought my wheel draw was far enough ahead to let them in cheaply and my hand played better multiway- was this wrong thinking? Should I have just reraised on 3rd st. and if I got heads up so be it?

7 Card Stud High-Low ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls

4th Street - (4.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises

5th Street - (6.30 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (9.30 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls

River - (15.30 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___calls
Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___folds

Total pot: (17.30 BB)

[greenage]

Since fourth street can change things so much, I think I just call on third.

Does anyone think folding to the raise on fourth is the right line?

[mmcd]

[ QUOTE ]
Since fourth street can change things so much, I think I just call on third.

Does anyone think folding to the raise on fourth is the right line?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd fold to the original bet on 4th, there's a dead 4, dead A (probably more than 1 of each is dead too given 2 other low hands in the pot), clubs are dead, and it looks like you have the 3rd best draw for half of a smallish pot.

[getfunky]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold to the original bet on 4th, there's a dead 4, dead A (probably more than 1 of each is dead too given 2 other low hands in the pot), clubs are dead, and it looks like you have the 3rd best draw for half of a smallish pot.

[/ QUOTE ] I agree with you, I should have just let it go, so whether to call the additional raise when I close the action is a matter of taste: should I admit now or on 5th st. that I made a mistake. Certainly in middle position, Greenage, I'd have to muck to avoid being jammed: thanks for all your input.

Bremen, you are getting at what I really don't understand fully. First of all, heads up vs a high hand and only a completed bet, I'd muck a brick with this dead 4 hand but call with 345. In a three way pot, I'd be much more inclined to take one off with this hand, as my hand plays much better multiway- I don't have to make a str8 to make money. Which brings me to your points and my original question. It's something of a paradox. My hand is drawing to the nut low and plays better multiway, yet it benefits from being heads up because I can catch the ugly 8 and 7, then backdoor trips or a str8 for free. You have said that a smaller low draw has little advantage. Could you quantify that at all. I mean, 732 vs 532 - who makes the better low more often? Thanks in advance.

Also, what do you guys think of this: the liver my key cards, the more inclined I am to trap. The deader these cards are and liver the rough cards, the more inclined to want to isolate with a reraise - however this is also a bit of a paradox since I'd want more money in with the liver hand and less with the deader - either way, since I played it passively on 3rd I should have mucked immediately.

[benwood]

Another advantage to being the only low draw against the high hand.You may accidently end up with 2 pair & scoop,whereas if other lows are in there,they can take the low side or even win the high side with a straight or whatever.

[getfunky]

[ QUOTE ]
Another advantage to being the only low draw against the high hand.You may accidently end up with 2 pair & scoop,whereas if other lows are in there,they can take the low side or even win the high side with a straight or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ] My current philosophy is to encourage my opponent's mistakes by putting pressure on them. My flat calling on 3rd didn't accomplish this at all .. Some players will limp with weak razz hands then call the two bets cold - I need to encourage this .. they are not making a mistake by calling for just the full bet. If they do call 2 bets, then apparently I'll have a slight advantage and might win a monster pot if I make the wheel. If they fold, then I get the advantages of heads up play + their dead money. I was getting too cute with the ruts before and the forum cured me of that, no I ain't letting in anyone cheap on 3rd unless I have a true monster like 345 suited.

[mmcd]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, what do you guys think of this: the liver my key cards, the more inclined I am to trap. The deader these cards are and liver the rough cards, the more inclined to want to isolate with a reraise - however this is also a bit of a paradox since I'd want more money in with the liver hand and less with the deader - either way, since I played it passively on 3rd I should have mucked immediately.


[/ QUOTE ]

I highly doubt raising on 3rd will chase the 7s out of the pot.

[Bremen]

[ QUOTE ]
You have said that a smaller low draw has little advantage. Could you quantify that at all. I mean, 732 vs 532

[/ QUOTE ]
Assuming you stay to the river you'll win low by yourself about 50% of the time. With the other low you drop to 40% with about 34% for the 7 low.

To be honest, I've thought about it a bit. You probably do want to play multiway. As you'll make quite a bit when have a better low draw. This assumes you can get away from your hand when you're drawing second best...

[silvergoose]

[ QUOTE ]
Since fourth street can change things so much, I think I just call on third.

Does anyone think folding to the raise on fourth is the right line?

[/ QUOTE ]

No way. It's one more small bet in a pot with something around 12 of them in it. He could catch one of the remaining 4's, including the amazing 4 of clubs, or a six, or maybe an ace. Or, for that matter, the low draws could brick and he could make an eight, having the best low hand with high potential.

[Bremen]

Funky, if you think the 7's will fold definitly pop it on 3rd. However if they're going to stay in I'd rather keep the pot small so I can make better decisions on 4th. Which means folding 4th, imho.