TP2K, pot control vs protection

[danny8]

thanks for the replies!

yea i think i should just fold pf, looking over my DB its a slight winner from UTG, but not much better than b/e, and likely a loser over a significant sample. anyways in the hand villain had A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

i only had 15hands on the guy, it def wasnt enough for me to be certain he was on a draw. with a read betting the river could be good, but against an almost unknown im not willing to hope he c/r bluffs me on the river

[danny8]

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Well, on drawy boards protection is obviously more important than pot control.

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what if you have something weaker, say you open JT in the CO and get 2 callers, do you play it like my hand?

[Romanis]

JT-twopair?
I'd play it the same but bet the river. (And probably bet a little more on the turn)

[corsakh]

If I get two callers on this flop with JT, I'm like crazy happy cos I have top two pair [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Seriously though, I probably check the turn with a weaker jack and base my river decision upon villains actions - bet size and timing on previous streets as well as my perception of him. I really cant explain this, not to sound rude but thin river decisions simply come with experience.

[danny8]

whoops, yea i meant tp w/ T kicker [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img], obv those come down to a lot of things! cheers!

[Fisherman23]

the flat call of your big flop raise makes me think a draw for sure...pay attention to the timing of his call on the flop...timing tells come in handy when you have no real reads on a villian. quick calls usually signify weakness...bet a little closer to the pot like 15-16 and call a push

[Grunch]

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Why? A missed draw isn't gonna call a bet. And you think he's gonna check raise bluff you on the river?

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One, there's no need to show down a free hand when we have the best hand 90% of the time here. Secondly, if villain pushes it's only 14 more to call. Lastly, it's also possible villain has a Tx/Jx that he'll call another bet with that we're missing value from on the river.

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If all better hands raise and all worse hands fold, betting is -EV.

[JROK777]

I wouldn't bet the river here. I don't see much value in it. A draw isn't goung to call/bluff raise. If villian backed into 2 pair or slow rolled a set, we're busto. If we had AJ it might be a value bet. I check river in popsition or OOP. I would c/c a reasonable river bet if we were OOP.

[DaycareInferno]

even though this hand comes down to a pretty easy pf decision, the title still brings up an intersting topic. i have had a lot of arguments with people over how to play marginal hands (say KT) in position, when we make a pair with our king.

i check behind in that situation a lot, because against a lot of players, i get called by better hands, and folds as well as raises from worse hands. (especially if i opened from the button). since my hand can't stand a raise, sometimes i prefer to check and work from the turn, where i will often be bet into by worse hands, and can call two reasonable bets without playing for a huge pot.

my largest point of disagreement with most people is the presence of draws on the board. my thinking is that against agressive players, i'm not really protecting my hand from draws with big bets, because the draw is actually a better hand than mine. the draw knows when it is ahead and when it is behind, and i don't. if my opponent is a station that will just call to a draw, i would be betting for value regardless of whether or not there was a draw present in the first place.

sometimes i will take the same approach with 8/9 out hands after raising on the button or CO versus an agressive player in the blinds. as of yet, though, i haven't really come up with any good guidelines to use in either situation, other than very obvious ones.

[filsteal]

Weak flop leads OOP are usually either weak made hands or draws. Either way your line is fine. TP2K is not usually a three-streets-of-value hand against typical villains.