Common Critical Situation on Flop: To raise or not to raise TPTK?

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
really isnt any reason to raise here*.

[/ QUOTE ]

*unless opponent sucks ass

[limon]

"but very often I'll raise here in position on the turn (with both AQ/QJ): it allows me to take control of the hand, it puts immense pressure on my opponent and often folds out better hands, it gives no free cards to hands that are drawing fairly live, it acts as a value/blocking bet that allows me to check-check the river to showdown if I want, it often gives me a "free" chance to catch up on the river if I was behind, and if I get reraised I am 100% behind (and often drawing dead) and is an easy fold....."

why not do this on the flop? in SS brunson writes that all significant decisions are made on the flop. i still believe this is basically true.

for matt; in a live game you can make a smallish raise in such a way to show incredible strength, this may be the play you are looking for. this is the flop play i would make. those who know they are either way ahead or way behind are kidding themselves. ive never had the turn go check check so i cant help you with that.

[fnord_too]

Entirely depends on opponents, and pre flop action is incredibly important.

There are just too many variable for a blanket answer, but I like to keep the pot smallish with one pair hands against most reasonable opponents. With position here, well, it all depends, but I think calling or raising both are fine, though raising is nice in that it denies nice odds to the checker who would be closing the action. On the board you show, I certainly am not interested in getting a lot of money into the center without a good read.

If I raise my plan is to check behind on the turn, or call a smallish bet (assuming I don't improve). If the turn goes check check and the river goes pot or bigger bet, the turn/river cards and opponent will be huge factors. (For instance, if I know villain likes to check raise his big hands on the turn in these situations, and does not bluff enough on rivers when the turn goes check check to balance his game, and wouldn't value bet a weaker hand, I would be pretty inclined to fold. Against other villains I would insta call in a lot of spots.)

[Chaostracize]

Yeah, as an addendum to my original post, if this is the type of villain who will go broke with tpgk and isn't that deep I'm raising here every time.

[Sunny Mehta]

[ QUOTE ]

why not do this on the flop? in SS brunson writes that all significant decisions are made on the flop. i still believe this is basically true.


[/ QUOTE ]

limon,

though I do think there are valid arguments to both sides, my reasoning is basically because there is only one card to come as opposed to two - WHICH ALSO MEANS one street of betting left as opposed to two....it's hard to make a blocking bet/raise on the flop if you then check the turn and have to play one more street.....also, I have a feeling that many games we all play in now are deeper than in Brunson's day (can't say for sure but take a look at the buy-in chart he shows in the book) WHICH MEANS that commitment decisions and commitment raises are often made on the turn (or even the river) and not the flop.....in games where everyone is 300BB deep, it's hard to make any kind of threatening raise on the flop period, and many people (often correctly) will take a card off on the flop with many hands......

I read through that old thread of yours that someone referred to in this thread, and while I agree with a lot of your reasoning (as well as the other people's counter-reasoning), I think the crucial point is when you say "IF YOU PLAN ON GOING TO THE RIVER"......when I'm 300BB deep I'll sometimes call bets (even pot-sized bets) on the turn with a made hand (I'm not talking about a drawing hand) and then fold to a pot-sized bet on the river because of a good read and a lack of being committed (because of stack depth).....that almost never happens with 100BB's - my decision is made on the turn/flop.......for example, say I had AK on an A-rag-rag board and called two pot-sized bets in position against a tight player - there are certain times I might fold the hand to a big river bet if I knew that particular player would never bet one pair like that on the river.....

[BIgMc]

What did preflop look like?

[limon]

agreed in principal. definitely for on line. i think in a live game there is so much you can do with nonverbal communication most of my decisions are made on the flop.

[MonroeSt.]

1. I would raise, I want to charge as much I can for the first bettor who might be on a draw with J10 J9 KJ, etc.
There are two others to act also so I would prob. raise the pot maybe a little more because I would want to isolate.

2. Depending on certain Villains I might call with QJ. You can't count on the backdoor straight draw and you might be running into AQ.

3. If any card that connects a straight to the board I will check and see. Depending on the size bet I might just call or I might raise. If re-raised I insta-fold. If a blank comes I would fire out a pot-sized bet hoping Villain is on a gutshot. River comes with scare card I still might bet and fold to a raise.

4. This is really dependent on the cards that come but I would flat-call a pot-sized bet. If Villain fires 2x pot I think for a long time and prob. fold if there are scare cards on the table. If the coast looks clear I push a 2x bet.

[MonroeSt.]

Why would you say there is no reason to raise here?
You have flopped TPTK on a straight draw board. So your line is just to check-call then here? Wouldn't you want to raise to make it more expensive for him to draw?

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you say there is no reason to raise here?
You have flopped TPTK on a straight draw board. So your line is just to check-call then here? Wouldn't you want to raise to make it more expensive for him to draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is exactly one open-end straight draw here. It's about as draw-free a board as you can get, which was, I assume, why it was chosen. You wouldn't be raising to charge draws but rather to extract value from weaker hands.