AK hand played strangely; interesting flop action

[whyzze]

I cant figure out how shoving in a WA/WB situation is the best line here.

I mean the check is standard. But I am completely indifferent toward crai and c/c. I think they will usually result in a similar outcome. Unless MP finds the guts to fold an ace because we crai.

[monkeymaps]

im assuming this is a value push?
preflop is ok I guess if it is only every once and a while and/or villans stack off with TP ok kicker easily.

since you under repped your hand preflop I guess the c/r looks a little bluffy.

CO raise of MP's donk bet doesnt have to mean he has a hand IMO though I mean its pretty standard to raise a donk bet in that spot with a pretty wide range.

[Pokey]

<font color="blue">OK, so here's what I was thinking.</font>

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

Pokey (SB): $165.00
BB: $100.00
UTG: $115.55
MP: $151.05
CO: $116.60
BTN: $49.85

Preflop: Pokey is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 Players)
UTG folds, MP calls $1.00, <font color="red">CO raises to $4.50</font>, BTN folds, Pokey calls $4.00, BB folds, MP calls $3.50

<font color="blue">In the immortal words of Dan Harrington, "no matter which [poker playing] style you adopt, you'll discover that you will make your easiest money when you make plays that are the opposite of your normal style." I'm a TAG. My stats are TAG. My style is TAG. My plays are TAG. No TAG would ever smooth-call a raise in a three-way pot from the blinds with AK. As a result, on the (admittedly rare) occasions when I actually DO smooth-call with AK from the blinds, nobody ever sees me coming. There's always the worry that you're getting overly tricky, and if I made this play routinely I'd be falling prey to that, but as an occasional mix-up, this can be extremely powerful.</font>

Flop: ($14.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
Pokey checks, <font color="red">MP bets $7.00</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $35.50</font>, <font color="red">Pokey raises all-in to $160.50</font>....

<font color="blue">The initial check is obvious: given how well-disguised my hand is and given that it's likely to have connected with my opponents' calling ranges in ways that put me way out on top, I'm trying to give CO an opportunity to commit some chips before I reveal my strength.

The four-bet all-in requires a bit more thinking. Let's start by thinking about MP.

I'm afraid of a 7 and I'm afraid of AA. That's all. Given the preflop action, both are less likely than usual. Also, if MP has either on a board of A77, why on earth would he donk into the preflop raiser? Much better would be to check, hoping CO bets and I call, so that he can trap far more dead money before you drops the hammer. Donk betting looks markedly weaker than a 7, and it says to me "I have two pair." Maybe he's got a weak ace, maybe he's got 33; in either case, he's testing the waters.

CO's raise is too darned big. There aren't many 7s in his range, so a raise here is likely to lean heavily towards aces. If he had AA and flopped a full house, would he make a pot-sized raise despite the fact that he has the deck crippled? Far more likely he'd smooth-call, hoping that I come along for the ride and pad the pot. He'll have plenty of time to bloat the pot with a turn or river raise, and with position he's got all the time in the world. No, this raise looks scared, trying to force hands out of the pot before they catch up.

My push is an overbet, but anything approaching on a normal-sized three-bet is going to (a) completely ruin the element of surprise, since nobody makes an 80 BB check-reraise without having a good hand, and (b) leave me pot committed without necessarily pot committing my opponents. To eliminate any chances of Reverse Implied Odds, I simply push. If both opponents fold, I win a nearly 60 BB pot uncontested. If I fold out AK, I've scored a 30 BB coup that pads my bottom line nicely. If I get called by AQ or weaker I've scored an even bigger Sklansky-buck win. There's a tremendous amount of "betting momentum" right now, and the odds of getting called are higher than usual as a result -- if I wait for the turn card, villains might sober up and realize they're in trouble, especially if I made an $80 flop check-reraise followed by another $80 bet.

In short, I think this bet wins the pot reasonably often, gets called by weaker aces occasionally and folds out tying hands occasionally. I'm up against a better hand nearly never, and my expected payout is enormous.

Had I simply three-bet preflop I'd probably have scooped the pot quite often, but then it was only 7 BBs. Now I've got a great chance at winning a 60 BB pot instead. By playing out of character I've set up a rare but uncharacteristically profitable opportunity for myself, and I spring the trap before my opponents get a chance to realize what's happened.</font>

[traz]

I still fail to see how shoving the flop is more profitable than shoving the turn.

How is this a RIO situation? You're never really going to win a small pot here, and this is especially true if you call the flop.

Also, in 3 way pots, I donk flops all the time with monsters. Whether a fish would do that is another issue, but his donkbet scares me more than it doesn't.

Lastly, depending on how aggressive they were, I may have just donked the flop myself if I were you.

I really do disagree with you on this hand

[kaz2107]

ur flop seems fine as i see u getting looked up a ton by Ax from either villian here (altho it would b far more sexy if their was a fd on the board imo)

ur preflop thinking is a bit over the head of an avg villian tho. are either of these 2 players capable of realizing u should b 3 betting AK out of the blinds all day??? this seems like a play i would consider making against some one who i have a good deal of history with or playin HU or sumtin like that. not sure if i like this but i will think about it a bit more

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
I still fail to see how shoving the flop is more profitable than shoving the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think my equity is highest on the flop. Also, cold-calling a reraise and then check-pushing (or open-pushing) the turn looks INCREDIBLY strong; even a very bad opponent is going to see some huge warning signs in that kind of play.

One more thing: my play looks really strange, here. Since loose-and-bad opponents spend more time looking for reasons to call rather than looking for reasons to fold, this odd and uncharacteristic move gives them a reason to call, since "he wouldn't make that play with anything solid."

[ QUOTE ]

How is this a RIO situation? You're never really going to win a small pot here, and this is especially true if you call the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

After I check-three-bet, or even check-call a huge reraise, I've revealed my hand as incredibly strong. At that point, my opponents can start to play far more correct poker against me, which in this case will mean escaping with their stack intact most of the time, but crucifying me and swiping the rest of my stack the few times they hit lucky on the turn/river. Once the action gets back to me on the flop, anything but folding will look VERY strong, considering how tight a player I am. Since I'm OOP, that gives me few options. One of my general strategies is that if I'm revealing my strength I want my opponents to have to pay a fortune for the information.

[ QUOTE ]

Also, in 3 way pots, I donk flops all the time with monsters. Whether a fish would do that is another issue, but his donkbet scares me more than it doesn't.


[/ QUOTE ]

You donkbet monsters here? Why? I'm guessing that your answer is "because it's so stealthy, because normal players would rarely do that." Well, these are normal players, and they would rarely do that. Your play is effective because donks can't see it coming, and donks can't see it coming because they wouldn't play it that way.

[ QUOTE ]

Lastly, depending on how aggressive they were, I may have just donked the flop myself if I were you.


[/ QUOTE ]

That would be announcing to the table that I have a 7, and that would probably kill the action for me unless I was beaten. Whether they believed that I really had the 7 or not is unclear, but if I donk bet I think I get smooth-called by aces, raised by 7s, and folds from everything else. This is especially true given my relatively tight and solid table image.

[ QUOTE ]

I really do disagree with you on this hand


[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, I'm not saying I'm right and I'm not saying you're wrong. This was a hand that I played in a very strange and non-ABC TAG way. I think it would be a bad idea to make this your standard approach to AK in the blinds, but as the occasional mixup, I think it has merit. If you don't, I wouldn't blame you one bit -- it's certainly high-risk and high-variance, and it takes an unusual flop and an unusual set of circumstances for it to prove profitable. It's also possible that at uNL it would never be profitable; nonetheless, I think it's handy to see different ways of playing hands and to help people to start to "think outside the box" when it comes to poker. Strange and unusual can be quite lucrative if its done correctly and infrequently.

[AZplaya]

Pokey,
While I agree that we should mix up our play, I really don't think this is the right spot to "slowplay AK" because:
1. We're in the blinds so we will be OOP
2. AKo is a hand that fairs so much better either taking it down pre, getting AI pre, or heads up on the flop. I think this is a must raise spot with AK at uNL.