top and bottom pair....

[fretelöo]

[ QUOTE ]
Sadly, I think you've gotta fold the turn. Leading the flop from BB, even a moron should know you're representing a K. When he raises you on the turn, I'm believing him most times: He can beat a K. If he can beat a K, he can beat K4 2 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

You GOTTA be kidding. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Edit: WFT????????? Are you guys crazy? On the turn Hero has 4 outs for the FH alone not even considering that a turn raise and a cold call is NOT exactly "a good bit of strengh".

[martybonus]

are our 4 outs to the FH really worth that second bet? 3.25:1 (or even 6.5:1) seems a bit light for 4 outs. tho i spose implied might justify it - if villain does in fact have a straight, we're getting plenty of extra bets in if the river gives a boat.

do we really think villain is calling the flop and then raising the turn as a bluff? and if he happens, to be, do we see button coldcalling 2 (3.25:1) as a similar bluff?

We're ahead of Kx, QJ, Q4, J4.

we're behind KQ, KJ, AT, 9T, or any of the sets which could have been made here (although it seems KK,QQ,JJ are unlikely given the PF action). these all seem like the kinds of hands these people would limp.

we also have the button to think about. he too could hold one of those hands.

a stove would be more definitive, but I just don't think our top/bottom 2p is good in light of a come-alive and a cold-call, even from villains we have no reads on. i don't see this sort of action as being anything but an advert that says 'you're beat bub.' hence my advice to fold here. but that could be an underestimate on my part. a stove might clear things up here.

a 3bet on the turn might tie us to the hand. esp as button will come along. we'd get to the river with like a 15BB pot and then 'oh well, we HAVE to call now in a pot this big.' benny is smarter than that, but i'm not :P

if we're going to 3bet the turn, great, it helps us narrow his hand range and provides alot of information. but we have to listen to that info [/theme for the week :P] and c/f where appropriate.

[fretelöo]

On the turn you get 9.5:1 when it gets back to you closing the action.

[fretelöo]

Oh, and Button has T7 of hearts, exactly.

[martybonus]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn you get 9.5:1 when it gets back to you closing the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

for all my yapping about the dreaded coldcaller, i completely forgot to add his bets into the pot.

not in red = not in pot. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

makes the turn decision clearer.

looks like hero has to cal the 2nd bet on the river too given the size of the pot. he's probably winning 1/10 of the time now that it's HU...

[RabidTortuga]

Weird play on the turn/river. If you just call the turn raise you're probably behind, so why donk the river? As played, I check/call the river.

I'd prefer to look for the checkraise on the flop to protect against all the draws out there. Failing that (no flop bet or EP flop bet), I'm check folding the turn unless I somehow get heads up. KQ, KJ, QJ poorly played 44, AT, JJ.

[Buzz-cp]

[ QUOTE ]
Sadly, I think you've gotta fold the turn. Leading the flop from BB, even a moron should know you're representing a K. When he raises you on the turn, I'm believing him most times: He can beat a K. If he can beat a K, he can beat K4 2 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

mubs

[Absolution]

[ QUOTE ]
Sadly, I think you've gotta fold the turn. Leading the flop from BB, even a moron should know you're representing a K. When he raises you on the turn, I'm believing him most times: He can beat a K. If he can beat a K, he can beat K4 2 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

K4, QJ, Q4, KT, random draw, etc...

[that_guy_33]

[ QUOTE ]
If he can beat a K, he can beat K4 2 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see the logic in that... why can't villain have QJ sometimes?

[Dr. Matt]

how about 3-betting the turn instead of donking?