Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max

[Exitonly]

bleh, i think i have a point, but i can't articulate at all. I'm going to sleep on it and try to say something coherent about in the morning/afternoon.

[registrar]

The point is that there is no universally best line and that the EV of each can vary, Exit maintains, hugely depending on our image, villain's MO and the situation.

Pushing is good when we feel villain will call with any ace, sees pushing as weaker, or when we are happy to take the pot down because of bubble considerations or whatever. Pushing is clearly generally going to be more often a good play on line. Pushing is clearly better when we feel that villain is more likely to have an ace than clubs.

Raising small is good against opponents who won't find this [censored] scary and will call with clubs/smaller aces. Raising small is good when we feel that clubs are a large part of villain's range.

Calling down is good when villain is extremely aggro and will read a call as a signal that we can be pushed off our hand OR when we feel that villain could have AQ/AK but may check behind on the turn but never fold nomatter what.

Calling and donking the turn is good when we feel that villain will find a flop raise too scary but can more easily talk himself into calling off the same number of chips one card closer to showdown or when this persuades him to shove.

Etc. etc.

If we accept OP's read, then shoving is obviously bad but bear in mind that OP's read is retrospective and affected by the results. Villain is essentially a random and we need to keep sets and bigger aces in his range to some extent and our line needs to take this into account and that our line can change depending on cards, action and reads to come.

[MLG]

what a bizarre and interesting spot. Nath is right to a certain extent that getting it in on the flop can never be particularly bad (although the reraise small seems to be a good way to widen the range you get it in against), and that other lines heighten your risk of making a mistake later in the hand. I mean you can end up getting it in on a blank turn when your equity v a better hand is halved, you can end up getting bluffed on the river if you miss...you can give a free card to hands that are only gonna put money in if they improve to beat you. I think all those other lines have merit and are better than shoving if you can accurately pick the right one against your opponent...which hinges in this case on how they perceive you. which is why i think different players are coming up with different lines.

[0evg0]

just for clarification exit,

both noah and i are actually saying call flop, c/shove turn

i think c/c'ing down has faults because I don't see a random betting the river when checked to w/o 2pair+ (ie he's not vbetting his AX, and he's not bluffing a missed draw)

[8Adam8]

I think calling and then planning on c/shoving the turn or c/c the turn is not really good. Most villains are checking behind like every turn with a HUGE chunk of their range. This is obviously not good for us as we want to get chips in the pot.

After talking with Randal+Ray, I am a fan of the smallish (maybe even minimum [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ) 3bet on the flop. If the villain is capable of shoving pretty wide, then the smallish 3bet does realllly well to get villain to shove with a lot of worse hands.

I think if we are calling the flop raise, we absolutely have to lead almost all turn cards. This is pretty unorthodox and a line that is not commonly used, but this is one of the spots it can be effective and get a lot of value.

[NoahSD]

I def think timex's line is the best so far (either the actual angle shot or just a small raise). It didn't cross my mind when I originally responded (nor would it ever cross my mind when i'm playing [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]), but that just seems like the really obvious best line because it gets more money in the pot without pushing out the hands that we're really trying to get money in against.

[JackOfSpeed]

[ QUOTE ]
I def think timex's line is the best so far (either the actual angle shot or just a small raise). It didn't cross my mind when I originally responded (nor would it ever cross my mind when i'm playing [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]), but that just seems like the really obvious best line because it gets more money in the pot without pushing out the hands that we're really trying to get money in against.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I now agree; in looking back at this I don't like a flop push as much as a smallish 3-bet and turn push.

[renodoc]

[ QUOTE ]
what a bizarre and interesting spot. Nath is right to a certain extent that getting it in on the flop can never be particularly bad (although the reraise small seems to be a good way to widen the range you get it in against), and that other lines heighten your risk of making a mistake later in the hand. I mean you can end up getting it in on a blank turn when your equity v a better hand is halved, you can end up getting bluffed on the river if you miss...you can give a free card to hands that are only gonna put money in if they improve to beat you. I think all those other lines have merit and are better than shoving if you can accurately pick the right one against your opponent...which hinges in this case on how they perceive you. which is why i think different players are coming up with different lines.

[/ QUOTE ]


which is why, although I have found this discussion fascinating, I still like to shove here. I hate calling and shoving the turn, and I hate checking and calling on the turn also. But then again, i am prone to mistakes.