NL Bots on Full Tilt

[BluffTHIS!]

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1) I believe that there are 3 different people, each having their own account.
2) I believe that they often play in the same location, grinding it away.
3) I also believe that most often they play as bots.

Question for Chuck and brandon:

1) Who has expertise in programming?

Here's my guess as to what happened:

- Chuck starts playing poker and becomes a decent player.
- Chuck has a couple of friends that are good programmers.
- Chuck teaches these guys poker and they begin to discuss a way to program a winning bot.
- Their 'think tank' plays a lot together and develops the bot.
- Sometimes they play 'for real' and sometime they play as bots. This is the perfect cover.

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This seems like a decent explanation.

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Dayshift zoo'ers,

Don't let the above quoted post by Spydog go unnoticed, or DWarrior's endorsement of it. It is indeed a very reasonable and most likely explanation. I.E., the started out straight up, started botting, and still play straight up a certain portion of the time as a cover.

Of course the very least likely alternative here is that nlnut's story is anywhere near to being completely truthful, nor its corollary that FTP is competent and pro-active in combatting bots.

[B00T]

This is from the OP

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So, if he thinks I think I’m playing the bot, then he could easily just have an A or even be on a complete rebluff. Then if I think he thinks that, then AT is a giant hand here. Finally I push, he calls with AJo and I lose. AJ??? I’m thinking there’s no way the bot is programmed to take a stackadonk line with TP2K here. I’m now 90% sure the jig is up. It was inevitable the bot owner would catch on, but I thought it might take a few days.

In one of the ultimate ironies of the whole situation, I set out to exploit the bots and ended up getting re-exploited by the bot owner (donking off two buyins in the three previous confrontations). Luckily he made it obvious for me. If he had subtly just called my raises and bet later streets or reraised me only every few hands, I might have gone on raising it with 9 high all night before I finally became convinced I wasn’t playing the bots anymore.

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If this team was so rigid and memorized charts, how would there be any adjustment in their play when they claim there is one set in stone strategy? These stats would not be identical if they start playing differently againist certain players and they did as OP claimed.

Any chance you have the hand history of this hand or something similiar?

This makes no sense.

[fluorescenthippo]

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I suspect that the button presses are being done by a human. It could be a script telling them the proper move, very easily, but the fact that FT cleared them and their apparent lack of scale leads me to believe this.

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After reading this entire thread, this is my deduction from the evidence and the response from the players.

They do have 3 people signed in. They have an automated script running dictating action on every street. The human then clicks the button.

This allows them to be exonerated by FTP for botting.

The statistics say it's a computer making a decision. The fact that they're able to fly under the radar says it's a human clicking the button.

Chuck can admit to everything here except the script running because it would violate the T&C.

The Poker Mom

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yep this is it. game over.

[BluffTHIS!]

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I suspect that the button presses are being done by a human. It could be a script telling them the proper move, very easily, but the fact that FT cleared them and their apparent lack of scale leads me to believe this.

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After reading this entire thread, this is my deduction from the evidence and the response from the players.

They do have 3 people signed in. They have an automated script running dictating action on every street. The human then clicks the button.

This allows them to be exonerated by FTP for botting.

The statistics say it's a computer making a decision. The fact that they're able to fly under the radar says it's a human clicking the button.

Chuck can admit to everything here except the script running because it would violate the T&C.

The Poker Mom

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yep this is it. game over.

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This is indeed the best theory so far that fits all the facts. And of course it still makes nlnut a liar.

[billmagnet]

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One big thing you guys continue to miss is that all players had to send in ID's and utility bills to FTP in the beginning of the investigation.

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lol lol lol, and this proves they aren't using bots??

[ImsaKidd]

Jesus this thread is tl;dr.

One point I'd like to make RE: Nations endorsement of his friend(s):

It is my perception that Nations status on 2p2 is very important to him. He has a fair amount of respect/pull on these forums from his posting history and whatnot. He used that pull in this thread.

Why would he risk tarnishing his reputation if he knew his friends were botting? He has NOTHING to gain, since he does not share in their $$ whatsoever.

It is possible he has not heard the full story from Chuck. I am yet undecided as to whether he has heard all the facts from chuck or not.

[ajmargarine]

Interesting thread. Hard to read any thread however once BluffThis starts bloviating inanities.

[MDMA]

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The fact that you are now reduced to FLAT OUT LYING in this post. Proves you have, at best, a shaky leg to stand on! Spreading this filth and passing it off as fact is SLANDERING!!! I'm sure you'll rustle up a few more mob members with these lies, but your tactics are NOTHING SHORT of underhanded! Deforming one's character isn't a good way to build clout amongst, what I thought(or been told), was a very intelligant community. You should be ashamed of yourself.

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Eh, you do realize you have been lying from the start right? In fact I am convinced your so-called attempts to defend a friend (and yourself at the same time) has hurt all of you way more than if you would have held that stupid mouth of yours shut.

Seriously, you are scum, regardless if this chuck guy have been using bots or not. You should have shut up so long ago, and I am STUNNED that nation and this chuck-guy decided to actually agree upon telling the forum that you were in fact one of the players, when it could instead just have been dismissed as a troll. That, if anything, was a retarded move. You have DEFINITELY done more damage than good to their cause, that is pretty clear.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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One big thing you guys continue to miss is that all players had to send in ID's and utility bills to FTP in the beginning of the investigation.

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lol lol lol, and this proves they aren't using bots??

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Very few bots are so well-made that you can't tell them from humans by looking at the picture, so demanding photo-ID is a quite efficient way to control this.

[bottomset]

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<font color="red">@nlnut/BrandonJoseph:</font> Tell us what you did in the month during which you were locked out of your account. Did you play on another site (like most seemingly rational people would do)? If this really is just a sweatshop and a "System" with no automation, seems like it would work just as well on any site...doesn't have to be FTP, right? As long as you have rakeback, it shouldn't really matter, right? So if you want to be exonorated (if you care at all about it, that is), just tell us what screenames you or your sweatshop buddies were using the System on at other sites, and let some dataminers check it out.

<font color="blue">@ everyone else:</font> -- here's my contribution to this thread. My first reaction to the post-flop #s is similar to most people's...that degree of conformance seems extraordinarily unlikely if these are 3 different humans. But there IS one more test we might consider running &gt;&gt; Ask yourself this: what's the single most rigid known "system" in modestly wide use today? A: shortstacking! In fact, I shorstacked for around 10K hands myself when first learning the NL game (as a LHE convert). But some people make a damn art out of it...so what we need is for a full-time NL shortstacker to take a large sample of hands (I'd settle for whatever you've got, be it 40K or 200K), and break them into 2 or 3 subsets (how you would do this? there's prob a more elegant way, but u could just start by grouping a couple of months together -- something like Jan+Apr+Jul+Oct vs. Feb+May+Aug+Nov vs. Mar+Jun+Sep+Dec). Then post here with the same stats that have been used to indict NLnut -- I'd like to see whether the sort of rigidity that NLnut claims is achievable with discipline can be approached using the most rigid single "System" known to be used on a modest scale.

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see their simple strategy makes 100times more sense shortstacking, minimal decisions beyond the flop, a lot easier to memorize the playbook

if you are going to create a super super rigid system, why would you keep things so complicated