When a check isn't a check

[bsnone]

Interested in everyone's thoughts on a play that happened yesterday at a live 6/12 game in Arizona.

Hero is on the button with AA. 5 limpers, I raise, all call (including BB)

Flop - J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Checked to me, I bet all call.

Turn - 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked to me, I bet all call.

River - 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Here is where it gets interesting, BB checks, early position player checks, next player looks down the table (as he has in previous hands) player to my right checks, I check. As soon as I check, the player who looked down the table as if to move the action along says "I never checked" and now wants to bet. The entire table, including the dealer read his move as a check... The floor is called over and rules that he can bet. I call, he turns over 33 for quads...

My feeling on all of this is that he would not have made a stink over all of this if I bet - he was looking to check raise as I had taken the lead this entire hand and he wanted to squeeze an extra bet out of his quads, when he saw that I checked, he gets grumpy with everyone and insists that he didnt check.

Just curious as to what others think. I'm not concerned with the outcome, just the etiquette.

[AngusThermopyle]

He never said check or rapped the table?
I don't care what you "read" his looking down the table as, it is not a check.
If you insist on a player making a legitimate 'check' before you act, this won't come up.

[bsnone]

and I understand that, I just think his move was shady. If I bet, he doesnt make a stink, once I checked, thats when things get scetchy.

[pfapfap]

Agree with what he did, especially if the dealer said "check" in response to his motion. Precedence does count in some places, so his motion could easily be seen as a check. However, usually people are allowed to cry "skipped" when there hasn't been significant action. In most places, you need three checks to be "significant". Sucks, but there it is. If he pulls the same stunt again, talk to the floor away from the table.

Hopefully the dealer was aware enough to keep the guy in line for future hands.

[jba]

it sounds like he didn't act. I think robert's rules say that you lose your right to act if three people act behind you, otherwise you still have the right to act. so it sounds right to me. different houses have different rules but it really doesn't sound like he checked.

you have to protect yourself. if the guy before you makes some vague action that can be misinterpreted ask him (or preferably the dealer) "did he check?" Save yourself the trouble.

also, bet the river! that check is soooo bad.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
He never said check or rapped the table?
I don't care what you "read" his looking down the table as, it is not a check.
If you insist on a player making a legitimate 'check' before you act, this won't come up.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is again BS. Players check by doing things like this all the time. They check by pointing they check by nodding, they check by pointing iwth their nose. If this player was checking this way throughout the game, then it is clear that his action was a check.

[dudemanjack]

[ QUOTE ]
also, bet the river! that check is soooo bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

So with five limpers calling the whole way down you don't put someone on a hand that can beat AA?

[Mike Gallo]

Look at the bright side, at least you lost the minimum.

[bsnone]

And really, as far as the money was concerned, I mean, it was $12 and I had just raked a $400 kill pot the hand before.

I see this player all the time at the card room, I will be sure and talk to the floor if anything like this happens again.

[bav]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He never said check or rapped the table?
I don't care what you "read" his looking down the table as, it is not a check.
If you insist on a player making a legitimate 'check' before you act, this won't come up.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is again BS. Players check by doing things like this all the time. They check by pointing they check by nodding, they check by pointing iwth their nose. If this player was checking this way throughout the game, then it is clear that his action was a check.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but... how many players check by looking down at the board or their cards or their chips? That's what you do when you're thinking, not when you're checking. Doesn't seem like any dealer should ever accept such a thing as a check. A nod or a point or a whatever to signify a check is acceptable if it's a clear sorta motion. But yeah, if this guy did whatever he's been doing for the last half hour to check, then he checked.

Can't tell from all this if the player coulda/shoulda protected his action. If you are looking down at your chips thinking "how much can I bet to get a call" and the dealer says "check" you may not realize he's talking about you rather than to you (as in, the difference between "you are checking" and "it is checked to you"). So you don't really know anything is going wrong until the player behind you checks and by the time you can say "hey!" the next player behind may have checked. So if the dealer nor the players can explain to the floor's satisfaction that this guy did something that should have been considered a check... well... what 'xactly do you expect the floor to do?

"That guy checked and now he says he didn't"
"What did he do"
"He looked at the cards on the board"/"He looked at his chips"/"He looked at his cards"/"He looked at a blank spot on the table"

uhhhh...

But if the dealer can say "He looked at me and nodded, which is what he's done the last 8 times he checked", that's different.

Don't think I can make a ruling on this based on OP's tale. But I don't object at all to the floor's ruling.