Why can't I beat micro LHE? (Two FR hands)

[Yerma]

Hand 2 looks good to me.

I c/r the turn on hand 1, but fold to a 3-bet. If you're losing, you put in the same number of bets as calling down (but lose the occasional chance to spike a boat). If you're winning, you often win 3 full bets after value betting the river.

[Smurph64]

Hand 1 you have to bet/call and then decide to check/call or check/fold the river UI.

Though personally heads up I check/call unless I have a read on the opponent that suggests otherwise.

Against very few super tight/passive opponents you can bet/fold the turn.

[neurotiq]

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Hand 1 you have to bet/call and then decide to check/call or check/fold the river UI.

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I don't think there's any point in bet/calling if you're not going to call a river bet unimproved. Pot's not big enough to chase our two-outer. So, if you bet/call, it means you think that your hand is good often enough to merit calling and you'll also call a river bet. If you don't think your hand is good enough, you should bet/fold the turn instead of wasting an extra bet to call the turn and fold the river unimproved.

[notreallymyname]

I'm glad to see I'm not mad to think that bet-fold the turn as a default line is terrible on hand 1, although bet-call was maybe better than check-call. Check-raise-folding there is something I hadn't even considered and I still can't quite fully grasp why it's good. It has the same weakness as bet-fold, but it's far less likely to be exploited... hmm.

I tried looking up the free showdown raise thread but I just confused myself trying to understand how it would apply to hand 2. (The point of the play is to get to a showdown for the same two bets while sometimes folding out better hands, yes?)

It does look like these hands aren't why I don't win at limit unfortunately, but not knowing what's wrong I had to start somewhere.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
I tried looking up the free showdown raise thread but I just confused myself trying to understand how it would apply to hand 2. (The point of the play is to get to a showdown for the same two bets while sometimes folding out better hands, yes?)

[/ QUOTE ]

The traditional definition of a "free showdown" raise is when we raise the turn with the intention of checking behind on the river unimproved. It's generally with the understanding that those are the last two bets we put into the pot unless we improve.

The thread (d?)evolved into a discussion of exactly what constituted a free showdown raise, and elindauer had a couple of excellent posts about when we might raise the turn even when we had to call a 3bet, like in your hand. Basically, I like the play here because:

-We're good fairly often on this board, believe it or not.
-With the board paired & your PFR, you are unlikely to be 3bet by worse hands (even though we probably have to call that 3bet in the hopes we can win with another spade).
-It would be nice to get SB out of the hand, on the off chance that the initial bettor has something like 77 and SB has outs to beat us. We're obviously not getting him to fold the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] & probably not K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], but maybe a hand like A6.
-Our raise is often being called by BB when he has a weaker hand, too, such as the aforementioned 77 with a spade or even a bare spade overcard, giving it value. Even a smaller pair without a spade will often look us up in the hopes that we're semibluffing, or just out of curiousity.
-We are very likely to have it checked to us on the river when we aren't 3bet.
-When we catch our flush on the river and it is good, it's likely to kill our action & provoke a check/call or check/fold. This way we assure ourselves of at least 2 bets going into the pot in those occasions, as well as when we're ahead on the turn.

The "getting better hands to fold" portion of the play really has no merit here, as our turn raise is never getting a better hand than our queens to fold.

[bozlax]

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Maybe I'm paranoid about being exploited, but isn't bet-folding the turn in hand 1, really, really bad if your opponent knows you do this? What do you bet-call?

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But you said:

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there's no telling what goes through these players' minds, if anything

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So, why're you worried about them picking up on pattern?

That said, there are places where you should bet/fold the turn...hand 1 ain't one of them.

Hand 2 is nice.

And, fwiw, if you're not a winning micro-LHE player the reason has nothing to do with the way you play broadway pocket pairs. That's NL-think. You probably think about hands like small suited connectors and draws like a no-dimit player, too, and those are the sorts of places you need to look for your leaks. Oh, and since all your bets are the same size, stop thinking you can bluff other players out of a hand.

Just for curiosity's sake, although it doesn't sound like you've got a meaningful number of hands, what's your preflop stat-line?

[marchron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I tried looking up the free showdown raise thread but I just confused myself trying to understand how it would apply to hand 2. (The point of the play is to get to a showdown for the same two bets while sometimes folding out better hands, yes?)

[/ QUOTE ]

The traditional definition of a "free showdown" raise is when we raise the turn with the intention of checking behind on the river unimproved. It's generally with the understanding that those are the last two bets we put into the pot unless we improve.

[/ QUOTE ]
FWIW, this is a pretty general application of the FSDR:

Ultimate Bet 2/4 Hold'em (6-max, 6-handed) Ultimate Bet Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: marchron is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, marchron checks.

Flop: (4 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, marchron checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: (2 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">marchron raises</font>, Button folds, SB calls.

River: (3 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">marchron bets</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 5 BB
Results:

marchron has 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (two pair, queens and deuces).
SB has 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (one pair, queens).
Outcome: marchron wins 5 BB. </font>

Notice of course, I didn't take it because I improved. The FSDR is basically designed to see showdowns for the same two bets you otherwise would if you called the turn and the river, but has the additional equity of sometimes folding out a better hand and sometimes capturing a third bet when you improve but Villain would have check/called the river instead of betting it.

[Harv72b]

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The FSDR is basically designed to see showdowns for the same two bets you otherwise would if you called the turn and the river, but has the additional equity of sometimes folding out a better hand and sometimes capturing a third bet when you improve but Villain would have check/called the river instead of betting it.

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And sometimes earning an additional bet when you have the best hand &amp; the villain would've checked to you on the river (but still calls our turn raise with a worse hand). Without having to eke out a thin river value bet, I mean.

[notreallymyname]

The maths just isn't working out in favour of a FSDR for me in my hand (the Q2 example on the other hand makes perfect sense), which may be because of my inexperience but, if it's truly correct here and I can't see it, I should just forget about it until I can understand it well enough to apply it correctly.

(re. the turn bet-fold, against unpredictable players it's also a bad line, that should be obvious. And fwiw I'm about 20/10, although as you say I haven't got a meaningful sample for this.)