KJs vs LP mcTAG opener

[Milky]

[ QUOTE ]
I am saying the latter. And it really doesn't matter because I don't think your argument has much merit. Position and initiative trump "calling range" and the much overused "turning your hand into a bluff"

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AJ I think you're giving way too much credit to 3bet callers if you say they're only calling w/QQ+.

Also, I still think the point does have merit in this situation. I agree that position and initiave are good things here however that means your cards really don't matter. You can do this with ATC and still have initiative and position. Why waste KJs by 3betting and turning it into a bluff (as much as you think it's overused it's still very valid IMO)? I don't see how this is not a valid argument.

[Babalatexi]

Why do you almost min-raise the flop, as in do you use these extra small raises otherwise? On to the hand, if you want to steal this pot it's much better to just call the flop and bet if he checks/probably fold if he bets again on the turn. To villain, a call on the flop looks stronger than a raise.

[Milky]

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Sorry to side track here but: Thats a pretty interesting point aj. If QQ+ are pretty much the only hands that are ahead of a 3 bet range then why do we do it at all with weaker hands other than to get pf folds? Does initiative make up that much of a difference? May sound noobish but Im really curious.

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That's the thing. Your 3bet range should be either A) hands that beat a 3bet caller's range (basically TT/JJ+ and AK/AQ) and B) pure bluffs like 76s (which still can continue if called on the right flop). So I'm having a hard time understanding why you guys don't think this is important in this situation?

[wslee00]

i second what milky says

and i also agree with babalatexi's line post flop

this is a call pf,
a call on the flop,
and bet on turn if villain checks, or fold if villain bets again

I think this is pretty standard if you ask me. you should be floating tons of flops here against a CO pf raise.

[ajmargarine]

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AJ I think you're giving way too much credit to 3bet callers if you say they're only calling w/QQ+.



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I am saying Hero needs to have QQ+ (maybe JJ+) to be ahead of a Villain's 3b calling range which is what I thought was your original point: are we ahead of villains' 3b calling range with the hand we are 3betting

[Daniel LeClaire]

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...Why waste KJs by 3betting and turning it into a bluff...

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You're not turning KJs into a bluff by 3 betting, because it's ahead of a standard TAGs CO opening range, IMO.

Also, it's a lot easier to push someone with a marginal hand out pf, than it is to do it on the flop.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
i second what milky says

and i also agree with babalatexi's line post flop

this is a call pf,
a call on the flop,
and bet on turn if villain checks, or fold if villain bets again

I think this is pretty standard if you ask me. you should be floating tons of flops here against a CO pf raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow way off.

[traz]

I don't mind the way this hand is played. There are a plethora of options here...you can 3bet pf, but it's not mandatory at all. You can flat the flop, but again a raise isn't so bad. You can bet the turn, but checking is fine.

None of the streets has a mandatory action, and I think this line is fine sometimes.

By the river I think you see Axs a very large percentage of the timne

[AZplaya]

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I agree with Profish, the turn is a good card to bet out on. It gives you so many more outs.

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funny I'm usually more inclined to check behind in pos. if the turn card gives me some nice disguised draws...

[Milky]

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You're not turning KJs into a bluff by 3 betting, because it's ahead of a standard TAGs CO opening range, IMO.


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It doesn't matter what his opening range is. It matters what his 3bet CALLING range is. If he folds to your raise then you can have ATC here, so when he calls will KJs be ahead of his range?