Exploiting Loose-Tricky Opponents? NLTRN

[Collin Moshman]

Hi Guys,

So my goal when playing HU is to observe how my opponent reacts to my usual game to get an idea of his style and tendencies as quickly as possible, then modify my style to exploit. (I mainly do SNGs, but I think the same concept applies to cash.) Sometimes this is pretty easy.

Example: After 10 hands, he limps or min-raises his button each time, then checks or bets small post-flop. OOP he calls 3BB raises each time I raise, and only folds once to a post-flop bet. So I mark him as loose-passive, and unless things change, my basic strategy is to see as many flops as possible cheaply and bet any piece for value, usually two streets OOP and every street in position; no piece and check/fold.

The style I find hardest to exploit is loose, unpredictable guys. They see a lot of flops, and make and call a lot of bets in a tough-to-interpret manner. Sometimes they fold to the initial c-bet, other times they'll lead out unexpectedly, and the only thing consistent about them is that they're loose. So you don't know what kind of implied odds you're getting to see flops, and when they make a play like a small check-raise, it's real hard to put them on a range (e.g., loose-passive and it's almost always a real hand, loose-aggressive and the range is very wide, but these guys you really can't narrow down their holdings much). They're not necessarily good or bad players, just loose and unpredictable.

This question may be too general, but I've encountered a lot of such loose-unpredictable players lately, and I'd really like some ideas for playing these guys, and/or inexpensive ways to make them give away more about their style.

Thanks for any input.
-- Collin

[Guruman]

the most valuable info you get out of these guys is what they show down. if they're playing aggressively, but for small bets sometimes its worth passing on valuebets or making slightly -EV calls just to see what they're taking some of the wierd lines (like checkraises) with.

Once you see the showdown hand, consider the board and your actions as well as you're perceived image.

Loose and unpredictable opponents are reading your betting patterns and basing their play on that moreso than on their cards or image. By forcing showdowns you can reverse-read your own lines and then use that info to manipulate thier bluffs and folds.

This can of course get very difficult because it'll mean that you may have to do crazy stuff like bluff-screwplay and overbet with monsters - then bluffs. If you can get into the heads of the unpredicatbles you may find them to be as formulaic as the more conventional villains you'll face - they'll just basing the formulas off of different parameters (your betting patterns and the board) than you're used to reading (villain's cards and position).

[ChicagoRy]

Expand the range you give for them in most spots, you can usually cut to the chase by eliminating extreme ends that match up and putting them on a decent range. For example, their range might include a lot of stuff you're 20-80 against, but it also includes stuff you're 80-20 against, you can cancel the two out to an extent and then see how you really match up.

While your range estimations may be prone to more error, these players seem to really miss value, they overbet big hands when they hit the river on scary boards and they underbet them on dry boards. Take advantage and play your hand more than you normally would, you're not going to find the "holy grail" of hand reading against everybody.

[dboy23]

I've been trying to practice patience with them. Usually they slip and get it in with something stupid.

You really have to focus on pot control to make sure you don't get blown off your mid strength hands. If he isn't folding postflop make sure you get full value out of it. If you can remain patient and resist the urge to bluff you are usually in good shape against these type of opponents.

[Collin Moshman]

Guruman, your take is that these guys are unpredictable because they're trying to do the same thing to me that I am to them, namely modify their strategy to exploit me? Very interesting. I will work more on considering my perceived image and what might be going through his head as he adjusts his style.

Chicago, your advice is more practical. Would others agree that "...these players seem to really miss value, they overbet big hands when they hit the river on scary boards and they underbet them on dry boards" ? I'll have to really watch out for this, sounds like very quality info.

Excellent replies, thanks guys.

-- Collin

Edit: Being careful not to get blown off mid-strength hands also seems like a solid tip, although striking a balance between extracting value and making it to showdown can be tough at times...

[HEK]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been trying to practice patience with them. Usually they slip and get it in with something stupid.

You really have to focus on pot control to make sure you don't get blown off your mid strength hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If you can remain patient and resist the urge to bluff you are usually in good shape against these type of opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

This does NOT work against good lags. My style is similar to what Collin is describing. Players who are waiting to pick me off are the easiest to exploit since I know it's coming. I pfr, they call. Board is 10 8 3. I cbet, they call. I NEVER bluff the turn because they are just looking to check/call me down on every street with everything from top pair to the nuts.

The best way to combat aggression is doing what they do and using it against them. If they are calling too many cbets then fire more 2nd and 3rd barrels. Against these guys you should nearly never call preflop. Instead, 3bet or fold which will tighten up your range from the BB and force him to either open his 3bet calling range or tighten it up. Either way that's another thing that's easy to exploit especially when most players play horribly in 3bet pots. And when you do play a rr'd pot try to either check/fold or fire 2 barrels depending on board texture. Your check/folds will give way to more credibility when you need to fire a 2nd barrel when you miss. That goes along the same lines as checking behind with 7high after you pfr and checking it the whole way...it lends more cred to your cbets/2nd barrels. The last thing I wanted to mention is making rediculously thin value bets once your image is there and he's seen you are capabable of bluffing. There's no better feeling than valuebetting 2nd pair on all 3 streets (or better yet, check/calling down 3nd pair the whole way for your stack)! Aggression, Aggression, Aggression but most of all Balance, balance balance.

[HEK]

[ QUOTE ]
Being careful not to get blown off mid-strength hands also seems like a solid tip, although striking a balance between extracting value and making it to showdown can be tough at times...

[/ QUOTE ]

True but realize that if you are calling down light then villian SHOULD start bluffing less and value betting more. So if you think this is true then you should start bluffing more and valuebetting less. Once that image changes, reverse directions, rinse, repeat.

[abcjnich]

Wait for a good hand and overbet "bluff." Maybe make some loose calls. Small ball the hell out of them.

[Marlow]

[ QUOTE ]
the most valuable info you get out of these guys is what they show down. if they're playing aggressively, but for small bets sometimes its worth passing on valuebets or making slightly -EV calls just to see what they're taking some of the wierd lines (like checkraises) with.

Once you see the showdown hand, consider the board and your actions as well as you're perceived image.

Loose and unpredictable opponents are reading your betting patterns and basing their play on that moreso than on their cards or image. By forcing showdowns you can reverse-read your own lines and then use that info to manipulate thier bluffs and folds.

This can of course get very difficult because it'll mean that you may have to do crazy stuff like bluff-screwplay and overbet with monsters - then bluffs. If you can get into the heads of the unpredicatbles you may find them to be as formulaic as the more conventional villains you'll face - they'll just basing the formulas off of different parameters (your betting patterns and the board) than you're used to reading (villain's cards and position).

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like an oversimplification -- if they are thinking players who can adjust to our play in the first place, how could we assume that there's a "formulaic" underpinning to their actions? When we adjust, can't we anticipate that they will just re-adjust, rinse, repeat?

If this is the case, I think that we'd want to find a way to give them bad reads by playing making a few "non-optimal" plays and getting caught on purpose. Then we keep track of what our likely image is and try to exploit going forward.

[HEK]

[ QUOTE ]
If this is the case, I think that we'd want to find a way to give them bad reads by playing making a few "non-optimal" plays and getting caught on purpose. Then we keep track of what our likely image is and try to exploit going forward.

[/ QUOTE ]

excellent