Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand

[Some9]

Donking turn is ok, as is check folding to a bet of more than 1/2 po

[bilbo-san]

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i think i make it 38/fold, i dont think hes going to shove often enough and sine hes donkish he can call with all kinds of crap, then id be happy to get it in on the turn

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Do you read souls? I thought villain was unknown!? Where's your read from?

[djj6835]

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i think i make it 38/fold, i dont think hes going to shove often enough and sine hes donkish he can call with all kinds of crap, then id be happy to get it in on the turn



[/ QUOTE ] Do you read souls? I thought villain was unknown!? Where's your read from?

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Lol. I just assumed it was the Party Poker NL 100 portion of the op.

[bilbo-san]

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If I'm continuing, I call and CRAI on turns like this (folding on A, 2, 4, 5, and 6).

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I think this is a decent plan and I add fold on a 7.

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Problem with this line is that it virtually forces him to play perfectly against you, unless you think you can get an unknown off TT+, which I don't.

Which isn't necessarily a fatal problem, but it does mean you better be real confident he's firing again with a bunch of worse hands.

And I don't really see how you can have that read here.

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I think this is a turncard he's likely to fire on alot with semi-bluffs he raised on the flop. And even if you say he doesn't know we don't have Qx, why would he ever suspect we have? A Q in our range wouldn't make any sense at all.

Ime people that min-raise the flop with semi-bluffs/bluffs tend to view a call as weakness and be happy to fire another bullet on the turn (often a big one), esp on a scare card. I see this line a ton.

Now we don't know this guy is likely to min-raise the flop with bluffs, but the only likely hands we're behind is set/65 and maybe JJ/TT. That's a pretty tight range so I think an unknowns range consists of enough bluffs, semi-bluffs or worse made hands to crai.

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Then why wait till the turn? What is wrong with 3betting and stacking off on this flop?

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1) you aren't as far ahead of these hands as you are on most turn cards
2) when you c/r the turn you present (bad) villains with better odds to stack off
3) you often gain information on the turn (if villain checks behind, he is more likely to have a draw, for example).
4) villain's range for betting the turn after you call the flop and check the turn is WAY wider than villain's range for pushing after you 3-bet the flop.

There are more reasons, but these 4 are a good start (especially 1 and 4).

[sebbb]

I think check/folding the turn is pretty weak.

If I had a hand with less showdown value, I might 3bet-fold the flop, and take a note on whether villain minraises with monsters or crap.


We do have a hand with some show down value, but if villain is not passive (he raised so he is probably not that passive) there is no way this is going to showdown easily, given that we are OOP. So we are going to be aggressive to avoid getting stepped on.

I'm hesitating between 3 betting/fold the flop and calling the flop then bet/folding the turn

[sebbb]

Actually I like calling the flop, then bet-folding the turn because if an overcard comes on the turn he is less likely to push with a hand you beat such as A6

[pineapple888]

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I think check/folding the turn is pretty weak.

If I had a hand with less showdown value, I might 3bet-fold the flop, and take a note on whether villain minraises with monsters or crap.


We do have a hand with some show down value, but if villain is not passive (he raised so he is probably not that passive) there is no way this is going to showdown easily, given that we are OOP. So we are going to be aggressive to avoid getting stepped on.

I'm hesitating between 3 betting/fold the flop and calling the flop then bet/folding the turn

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So, let me get this straight... because your hand has showdown value, you take a line that virtually guarantees you won't get a cheap showdown.

As for my line being "weak", sometimes it's OK to get moved off the best hand, especially OOP. All you have is a crappy overpair.

[sebbb]

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I think check/folding the turn is pretty weak.

If I had a hand with less showdown value, I might 3bet-fold the flop, and take a note on whether villain minraises with monsters or crap.


We do have a hand with some show down value, but if villain is not passive (he raised so he is probably not that passive) there is no way this is going to showdown easily, given that we are OOP. So we are going to be aggressive to avoid getting stepped on.

I'm hesitating between 3 betting/fold the flop and calling the flop then bet/folding the turn

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So, let me get this straight... because your hand has showdown value, you take a line that virtually guarantees you won't get a cheap showdown.

As for my line being "weak", sometimes it's OK to get moved off the best hand, especially OOP. All you have is a crappy overpair.

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No, what I meant is that we have showdown value, but unless villain is passive it doesn't matter since we aren't going to see a cheap showdown.

If I knew villain was passive I would check/fold that turn and try to go to showdown cheaply.

Then you're probably right that we can play that hand weakly and wait to know more about the villain

[HoldEmNewby]

well here is the hand in its whole. I bet 2/3 on the turn, any problems with my bet size? Reasons for betting is value against a draw, and 77-88 type of a hand. Even though the overcard falls I don't see 77+ folding. If river wasn't a scare card I would be block betting.

It seems like c/f the turn would have been a better line.

Party Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $124.92
BB: $115.42
UTG: $22
Hero (CO): $118.58
BTN: $99.15

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $4</font>, BTN calls $4, 2 folds

Flop: ($9.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $8</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $16</font>, Hero calls $8

Turn: ($41.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $27</font>, BTN calls $27

River: ($95.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks with the intentions of folding

[Nick Royale]

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If river wasn't a scare card I would be block betting.


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You only have 1/2 psb.