Just what is wrong with William Hill poker

[dreamland101]

I wrote this out couple of months ago, manged to tidy it up last night and hoped to post it today, any one got some thing to say post follow up, Currently able to own other quoted site at will pretty much, doubling up tripling up not a problem.

“Just what is wrong with William Hill poker”?



Poker is a great game; it is an involving game, which allows a skilled player to over the long haul make money, fact...

I personally have been playing poker for two & half years, in that time I have played countless hands; I have played at home on school poker software, online across the big name sites and have played in small home games.

My first foray into online poker was with William Hill; they are a well known, United Kingdom, high street betting shop.

I did not do well during my first six months of play with them; I managed only once to walk away with £100 pounds after what must have been an investment of thousands of pounds and countless hours at the virtual tables.

I took a break and used some of my hard earned leisure time to read up on good poker play, I learnt about semi bluffing, pot odds, I read Doyle's book, I read Hold’em Poker For Advanced Players By Sklansky and Malmuth, I read a heap of books, I highly recommend the Zen of poker and the Tao of poker, by Larry.W.Phillips.

Great books Phil, if I had to recommend three books to some one playing cash games Tao of poker would have to be in there.


After brushing up somewhat I tried again, and lost, I played good but manly I never knew when to leave the table, either if I was down or up. When I was not getting ahead. I decided to take another break and use home software to simulate play.

On my next return to the world of online poker play I decided I would try out another online poker casino, which was certified as all above board, I was pointed to VC poker.

Well it was like jumping from a hot frying pan of disappointment and intriguing bad beats to a cool ocean of sensibleness, where the cards seemed to more closely resemble reality and randomness. Dare I say I could use a little math when betting and have results that were more or less to be expected?

Today as I write this I am broke. I have about £17pounds in my pocket to last me the month. And it is not a matter of was I ripped off but how.

Let me explain what I mean.

I am a good poker player, a very good poker player, I know when to fold when to bluff, when to apply pressure when to mix it up and of course tighten up every thing, I know how to play tourneys reasonably, I can play heads up and win but this is easily the weakest part of my game, I don’t like heads up because I cant fully use all of my skills and if we are honest, its really a crap shoot heads up. Heads up is not were you can fully, well make lots of money.

In my past I’ve gone in with £100 and been up to $1800 in around 16hours of play, I know how to grind, (And drink coffee) how to get a feel for it, how to Zen it out, the whole thing.

What is important to me as you read this is that you can kind of take my word for it that I know how to play; I am not a tilt player, a chip bully or the sucker at the table. I can play, maybe you are better than me but over all, there are no flies on me, I will take your money if you don’t respect me.

Now that we have that clear, let me get into the meat and potatoes of this post.

I am sitting at home two days after the worst beat of my life, it was horrendous, I did not play bad, on the bets, on all of the important bets, and I lost. I lost outlandishly, it was crazy.

I played on William Hill again, having previously promised to myself, I would not play there again. Every (important) losing hand I had, I expected it (even thou I thought I was odds on to win “mostly”). William Hill (poker) is a fix in my opinion and I would like to explain just what I think is going on. I know personally after speaking both Online in game and off line to senior players that I am not alone in thinking that some thing is not right in Kansas.

So we can all put a name to the mysterious card events at William Hill we should give it a name, I think a fitting name is important so we shall call it the.

“The Dynamic deny with entertainment face off event synchronizer”.

I would like to think that that name will resonate with players accustom to this site and the laughable card system which is in place there.

It’s easy to say some thing is a fix and there really is little possibility to show or explain to another person, even another good poker player. It can be put down to a bad streak, cold deck, and luck. But for the losing player who has been paying attention for months, paying attention each session, (considerable time) peaking in attention, watching devastating event after another each session, it gets a bit tiresome and then the worse thing finally happens.

You lose the ability to bet with confidence. That in poker terms is the final nail.

So where are we? Although examples are a bad idea generally here because unless they are all documented and shown so the over all view or consideration can be made they are just what they are a few examples of hands at various stages in a session, are they from the same session, in these examples they are.

So these examples can be explained away or dismissed, this is unfortunate because I would say 75% of people who have played on WH or Betfare (Both use the same RNG card system. Crypto-logy I understand) would strongly agree with me when I say, “Just what is wrong with William Hill poker”?

I define a legitimate poker RNG as the following.

- A closed looped RNG system, which randomly generates numbers that produce cards for play on a virtual poker table.
- The card (randomness) system must not be able to change cards distributed to players due to a players previous play, previous wins, or for that matter previous losses. Each hand is a unique event with no possibility for over sight (guidance) in any form to alter the outcome of a particular game. The site RNG must be random truly from the start until the day that site closes for this particular kind of business.

So lets get back to were I’m at, it’s Saturday and I’ve just been ripped a new [censored] and it was dodgy (suspect), very dodgy, So dodgy that I wrote an email to William Hill to confirm that their RNG is certified as random? Before we get into that lets cover some examples so we can at least understand the floor were walking on here.

Right lets start with well I would consider the most interesting hand which happened to me actually when I managed to work my way back from being close a £1000 down to being only £200 down. I would also consider my remarkable win back to that figure a fix also. You know when some thing is being cooked in the kitchen.

In lobby, find game, has a high pot, say the room was blue moon $5/$10.

Six-handed table with only two people there, a player called Gusto with $500 and some other player. I sit with him to my right.

First hand
Me: AA
I raise it and the pots say $35 now, one call one fold, Gusto and me it is then.

Flop: 8clubs, Jack Hearts, Queen Hearts,

I bet: Pot= 100$
Other player folds and Gusto just calls…

Turn: rag card nothing important, I check gusto bets $5? I call?

River: another nothing card, I check gusto bets $5? I call?

Now before I tell you what gusto has let me just explain were I am at this stage. I’ve been up for 20hours, I’ve drunk my body weight in coffee and it’s me and poker, if there is one thing I who at the age of 30 can afford to do now is pay close attention to the game of poker I’m in. After these hours of poker, I know this is not a normal game of poker where I can do this or that and win. I’m not going to win, it does not matter what happens.

My account is being implemented as a variable which is actively being monitored or factored in when cards are being given out, I know it, the chap who I called over to watch the ridicules cards “in the flesh” in game knows it (William Hill /Online / Person in flesh was called over to watch the play when it all became laughable, person in flesh was not an advanced player but was able to verify I sure was being bad beat for what ever reason).

Unfortunality right now, you can not know what I am saying is true, but I am endeavouring to convey my disappoint with the owners of WH that they have felt it necessary to implement what ever fixed system which is in place

*Note: As of this writing I am unsure that the poker site WH does in fact voice out that their poker game is fair and random? It would be an interesting legal matter if I did in fact later find out that WH does not under write any such promise, that the cards are what they decide vs. a random system, this may seem laughable but during a RNG (random card system) search of the WH site. I only found a page explaining that it would not be in WH interest for they’re to be any way for the public to alter their system. I find this strange, as I would expect such an important, really important valid question to be clarified loudly, clearly. Alarmingly my email to WH did not even return this information; I have kept all correspondence for future inclusion to this post via an edit, my email to WH as one can image is an all time classic having just had above said new poo orifice created.


So back to Gusto, what did he have, he did not have me beat but he sure had me even more aware to watch my back, he had aces? So... what do you make of that, I’ve been messed about the whole night, I am just £200 ($400) short of being back to level and I find a new room and that’s the first hand, what’s even the math for that happening?

Let’s move on because as you know the “Dynamic deny with entertainment face off event synchronizer” is not short of fun things to do to you.

I get dealt 7-9off-s, one or two hands later, not long a few minutes, what’s the flop?

Flop: 8-5-6

So I have the straight, the highest straight no need to worry here, this is strong?

No big mistake this is William Hill poker you are in a very dangerous place with this hand because more likely than not you are going to lose, let’s continue because this was a real hand.

I bet $10 and get two calls; the next card is an eight making the table look like this.

8-5-6-8, with me holding the straight. These Gentlemen messed with me betting $5 so I’ll do the same, he calls, other guy folds. River, Ace. I check he bets $5(Yes It is no limit…). I call.

He shows down ace eight to make a full house… It happens you might say.

Yes but you have to expect randomness over all, poker is about odds, math, the man and finally luck.

Unbelievable, now this is where this piece gets dangerous because you might start applying odds, you might start trying to explain that this happens, that I was lucky I was playing on that table such a weak player, that this happens on live tables, but you’re forgetting.

This is the.
“Dynamic deny with entertainment face off event synchronizer”.

Now let me cover two more hands just to give a little more flesh to this piece.

This was a great hand, one that is a particularly good as it shows some thing of what I mean about the second part of the name bestowed upon the RNG, that is “Dynamic deny with entertainment face off event synchronizer”.

I am Dealt King of heart, 10 of Clubs. There are only three people on the table, we each have $50 or they’re about.

The flop comes
King of clubs, 8 of Clubs, 2 of Clubs.

So this is quite an interesting hand, it ticks all the boxes for players who know what they are doing, I hold the high pair with a decent kicker and one more card makes me a flush with a ten, the king is taken so that leaves only a few cards which will beat me plus there are only two other players, an atomic bomb could not take me off this hand, GLUE?

I am second to act so what does the first person do? He goes all in for $55. I call it and of course the last person calls it... Wow.

So what do we have out there in Narina land, first player had the king paired with an eight kicker. What does the last person have of course he has the aces of clubs making the flush if another spade hits... it does and he takes it all.

That’s typical but not great, this is great: I hold 5-5 pre flop, it gets raised and I call the flop comes down 5-ace-ace.

First player bets, second player calls, I call.
Turn: not important
First player bets, call, call.
River: not important
First Player checks, second player bets, I re-raise $10, Unable to remember if the second player calls or fold’s; I think he folds but any way. I get called and show down the full house, I get a NH in the text box and I am thinking what a rip off, both of these guys had the ace, I saw one the other guy saw it coming.


Now encase your unsure if what I am saying is right or wrong I will explain what I mean with one last hand.


You get dealt jacks, you go all in, every other player on the table calls and they all have aces, kings, queens, and tens. The math...

And it happens over and over and over, Poker is sure to bring up very interesting and amazing events, it is after all poker, but if you’re a pro, or some body who knows the cards, the flow, the way things go, the numbers, the chances, the medium, the expected chance of things to happen. If you have seen all that and then all you see is just fantasy land events one after the other and dare I say it a pattern.


So were does this leave me and the numbers of players who relate to what I am saying.

As a sensible normal reasonable intelligent human being who is good at poker and knows he is being messed with. Here are some of the comments I get when I mention this in game to other WH players.

: Yeah I know...
: Yeah I know but what can you do about it.
: Don’t get me started
: Yes you’re right.
: You know what happened to me yesterday…

This has been fun to write and the important thing is, well its honest every thing I have written is correct to the best of my opinion.

I spoke to a family member who was playing card sharks at 16 years old for money. Serious player, it does not matter how good I may or may not think I am, he is good, Implied odds the lot, I told him about this and this is what he said.


Do you know how good I am at poker?

I used to play on Betfair and it was murder, it was a joke, I had straight flushes cracked, Quads cracked, I did not lose but I could not win.

An elite poker player who is out to make money should or will want to do the following.

Cruse and take advantage of the odds over players who don’t know a semi bluff bet/raise when it’s made, don’t know when to reraise, fold, change gears. A great player over the hours will do some thing magical, he will put into form the indescribable, he will be able to play negate the fact we all get the same darn cards, he will make more money than you or I.

The only thing I could do was express to him what a deep shame it was that he only frequented Betfair/WH, that if he had gone to some were else it would have been better.

If you are thinking of joining a poker web site do not let bonus codes or give a ways affect you, You want to see a photo copy or link to a official certificate which proves beyond doght that their card system is trustworthy. If you get your nut flush cracked with a drawn out full house (and still remain about level..) For the third time, at least you where you are in life...

Fair comment? Does any one know any think concrete on the WH system?

Edit (Nov 06): The above family member player is an advanced poker player and also a Backgammon expert, having beaten numerous senor level players, including one former world champion. (21 games etc.)


I would like to wrap up now and just consider things. Could it be real that WH and others who share the same RNG system are fixed, who is meant to be responsible for over sight and auditing of these systems? At this stage if you were to explain to me that this and that is in place to stop any form of cheating I would just be so much more impressed with how ever this is being done, Truly it’s a work of genius, experienced players can see there is some thing dodgy (suspect) but to the untrained eye it’s just unlucky bad beat after another bad beat. You almost had it and were drawn, kings vs. aces again etc. But if the cards are watched for a long period, traps with *smoke and mirrors are seen.

*This comment is directed at the provision of cards and probability of given expected events to happen, example: The final table event in the latest James Bond film Casino Royal, could it happen? Yes. Would you be surprised to see such an Entertaining face off?

Can any (medium to advanced players) one actually say they are players on the above sites and they cannot relate to what I’m saying?

I’m broke and I will be leaving the poker community for an extended period of time. I hope that if any body does play at the above sites they take onboard what I have said and be careful, model your game appropriately, I’m not saying you can’t play and maybe even win on William Hill, I’m just saying you can’t do it by playing smartly, correctly or like a professional. Those people are just the kind of people the “Dynamic deny with entertainment face off event synchronizer” has been designed to take to the cleaners.


As of this writing William Hill has not provided me, (As requested!) any form of information on their random number generator. I also in particular asked if any member of Staff (Poker department, other) is officially allowed or denied use of WH poker through employment policy.

If some body at WH knows a little trick at how to play or affect the cards of WH poker I would at least like to know that insider information is guarded against use or release to any third party by way of their employment policy.


Is it fixed on William Hill? I truly don’t know a 100%, but I’ve been there and seen some very weird poker every session, normal good play is not rewarded. (Watch for a large win rate at immediate start of session) I left for another site and instantly started making good money, I was able to bet with the cards, money made is not proof and I don’t say that as such, but I would say 100% if my life was on the line that the cards are better suited to an advanced player away from William Hill that is concrete.




N.M

Disclaimer: The contents of this page are statements expressed as opinions only; no legal action against a persons expressed opinion should therefore be made.


N.m is a senior computer engineer who is certified at levels 1, 2, 3 in Micro Electronics, he also held the Mcse for Nt4 & is an experience Network fault finding Engineer. He has served as a senior support Technician at major blue-chip companies and is also a fond player of Texas Hold’em.

[Airway Manual]

wtf?

tl; dr

[otnemem]

[ QUOTE ]
wtf?

tl; dr

[/ QUOTE ]
Online poker is rigged?

tl;dr

[otnemem]

Oh my god, I just scanned this post. You long-winded, self-indulgent buffoon! Who puts a disclaimer on a [censored] message board posting? I hate you.

[.KeviN.]

wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too long my man

[uncleshady]

Try Interpoker. They always treated me good.

[headturner1]

tl:dr

lol.

[phish]

Think I'll wait for the movie.

[SayGN]

I would like to inform everyone that while the 6 hours I spent reading this post was a complete waste of my time, there was one little pearl of awesomeness that brightened my day. When he said, "...new poo orifice created" I started laughing in the middle of my finance class.

OP: Every single hand you posted was played horribly by you. spend more time posting hands here and having people critique your play. While some of your hands are bad beats, your all-in with KT was retarded and you should have folded it for sure. As for the two players with AA hand, I've played most of my online poker career at the cryptologic sites with the RNG hand generator. Only twice in over 100,000 hands have I seen AA pitted against AA (and one was on FT not crypto). However, I have probably played 2,000 or so hands of live poker and I've seen AA against AA FOUR TIMES (one was playing heads up)!! I think there's something wrong with my live poker hand generator.

Based simply on the hands you've posted, you and everyone at that table do not play poker all that well. That table is a goldmine for alot of the 2+2 posters (not me because I suck even though I can recognize other people making bad plays), but you shouldn't be playing at $50 tables yet.

my .02

[Xanthro]

First, you are not a good poker player, and it appears if you are being serious, you do not understand even the basics of poker.

Second, you obviously don't understand how RNG work. I lost 24 times in a row where I started with AA, KK, or AK. 24 times in a row, that's over a number of sites and live play. I'm also currently only 1 of the last 13 hands starting with AA at showdown. Horrible stupid beats where the person should have never seen the river.

Now, since many of these were live, and a few I dealt MYSELF, it can't be based on a poor RNG, since one wasn't always used, and different sites have different RNG and different seeds.