botched hand from 1/2 stud hi

[11ofhearts]

I know i screwed this up, just looking for feedback, particularly when should i have given up?

7 Card Stud High ($1/$2), Ante $0.10, Bring-In $0.50 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises___raises___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___folds
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___folds

4th Street - (10.80 SB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (6.40 BB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (8.40 BB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

River - (10.40 BB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___bets

Total pot: (12.40 BB)

[roggles]

I think reraising on 3rd is unnecessary. With his original raise he is quite clearly saying he can beat a pair of jacks

[chucky]

[ QUOTE ]
I think reraising on 3rd is unnecessary. With his original raise he is quite clearly saying he can beat a pair of jacks

[/ QUOTE ]

[mshalen]

[ QUOTE ]
I think reraising on 3rd is unnecessary. With his original raise he is quite clearly saying he can beat a pair of jacks

[/ QUOTE ]

So my question would be: If I was the opponent and could beat the obvious pair of jacks should I raise on 3rd and give my hand away or sort of slowplay and just call? Would the answer be different for the hands of AAT or TTT?

[11ofhearts]

yes that was the case but i felt he had a smaller pair with bigger kicker, i 3-bet to get heads up.

[Andy B]

From opponent's standpoint, the benefit of clearing out the riffraff and (hopefully) getting to play heads-up against a weaker hand compensates for possibly giving your hand away. The Jack can put you on a big pocket pair, but he's going to stay with you anyway.

[Andy B]

I might choose to slow-play TTT but probably wouldn't slow-play Aces unless maybe I was going for deception in a tougher game.

[Andy B]

Just call the raise on third. You're representing Jacks, and he's saying he has Jacks beaten. Even if your Jack weren't in the door, when your typical micro-limit player makes it two bets on third street, he usually has a pair bigger than Jacks.

You check and call fourth street because you're afraid of the bigger pair. I'm not sure what changed on fifth street. Yeah, you've hit a couple of big cards. This makes it somewhat less likely that you're beaten, and it probably makes his hand more dead. The fact remains that you're probably still behind, and I find it very unlikely that you will con him into folding anything that you want him to fold. Checking and calling may seem weak--and it is weak--but I think it's probably best here.

Sixth street gets interesting. Part of the reason that you buck a "known" bigger pair with your smaller pair is that he can't make two pair without you knowing it. Well, lo and behold, he's made two pair. Presumably. Thing is, you bloated the pot on third street, and you may well have a bunch of outs. You're drawing dead against a full house, but you've got three outs against Aces-up, six outs against Kings-up, and eight outs against Queens-up. And Jacks-up will occasionally be good, so you're probably obliged to pay off if that's what you make.

There are three ways he can have rolled-up Tens, and you have zero equity there.

There are three ways he can have pocket Aces, and you have .081 equity in that case.

There are three ways he can have pocket Kings, and you have .161 equity in that case.

There are three ways he can have pocket Queens, and you have .214 equity in that case.

There's one way he can have pocket Jacks (and he's sitting there thinking that you can't have Jacks because he's got them), and you have .216 equity in that case.

Taking a weighted average, I get about 12% equity. Considering that you have to call two bets to see a showdown, and you really can't comfortably raise unless you hit a Jack or maybe an Ace, I think you've got a fold here.

Having gotten to the river, I'd guess that Jacks-up aren't going to be good quite often enough to make paying off profitable.

[electrical]

If you knew your opponent could beat Jacks (and he gave that indication) your Eight was 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and Nines were live, you'd be correct to continue, (but even then not re-raise) because of the added additional ways you could make a pat hand.

As it is, the extra raise on Third is pointless. In situations like this, where you can be pretty sure your opponent can beat your one pair, you keep the pot small so you can avoid paying off two pair. For this reason I would have checked with the worst hand on Fifth and folded Sixth, by which point you may be drawing dead or to three outs.

[11ofhearts]

[ QUOTE ]
you check and call fourth street because you're afraid of the bigger pair. I'm not sure what changed on fifth street.

[/ QUOTE ]

at the time i was thinking of it as a test bet and if he raised i was done. obviously this didnt work at all and i guess overall its not the greatest play.

great feedback btw thanks