KJs vs LP mcTAG opener

[Milky]

Good post bozzer. Here are some things to consider though. First off, assuming you're called, even your 25% equity isn't that great, as you're going to end up in RIO territory a lot. Also, lets say you flop a King. Is are QQ/JJ going to pay you off? Probably not. What if the flop comes J high? All you're beating at that point is AK, which probably isn't paying you off either. And if you flop a draw, you'll just have to get it all-in on the flop with very little FE.

Now, if villain is positionally aware, his CO opening range is pretty wide (22+, suited+offsuit broadway, SCs down to 54s, suited aces, etc). Just calling leaves you in position against a range where you're almost 50/50 (46% equity according to PS). Also, if the blinds come along it's really not a bad thing, KJs plays decently multiway, plus you have better implied odds. Also, you have less invested in the pot if you totally miss the flop and face aggression.

Basically by 3betting here you're relying on him folding >55% of the time in order to make it a profit, so you really could have ATC here. And actually, if you change KJs to 72o, you're still only a 20% dog to JJ+/AK. It just seems to me that KJs plays well enough in position against a fairly wide CO raising range to throw it away on a bluff. Now, if he's not positionally aware and his range is a lot tighter then I can see you raising and hoping he folds, however I'd rather have a hand like 76s or something and honestly I'd probably just toss both of them as he's probably calling my 3bet more.

[luke4130]

This is a good thread, it has generated some good discussion.

Milky and myself have spoken about 3betting at length recently, it's something i'm working on myself too.

Bozzer, you make some very good points and I agree that equity calcs are pretty much ignored. I think you have to be very careful doing these calcs without any consideration of how your hand plays postflop and your opponent's tendancies though. imo, 3betting there with KJs is setting yourself up for some v. awkward situations postflop. 22 has considerable equity against a v. tight calling range, but playing it postflop in a 3bet pot against decent opponents is a nightmare.

Here are my thoughts on constructing 3betting ranges: The keys are opening and calling ranges. Against someone with a loose opening and very tight calling range, your range should definitely be polarised imo. It should consist of hands you want to stack off with and hands you want to make him fold with. Against an opponent like this, it doesn't make sense [to me] to be 3betting marginal broadway hands, because when you hit flops, your opponent is v. likely to have as well. I think you basically have to hit 2p+ or a big draw to be stacking off ahead with something like KJs against that opponent's range. Against some opponents who open v. loose and call 3bets v. tight, 3betting any two cards is profitable, obv here 3betting these marginal hands is not a huge problem at all because it will show immediate profit.

Every opponent is eventually going to get annoyed with being pounded with 3bets and will adjust their calling range, good opponents open up their 4betting range, bad opponents just call more. Once they start to call more, I drop the bluffs and move my range to all value.

When you have a loose opener and a loose caller of 3bets, your range shouldn't include too many bluffs, but should be made up primarily of value hands. These hands can be considerably weaker than for my first example and can def include weaker broadways. Opponents who tend to call a lot, tend to be forced to make moves postflop [if they dont and they play fit or fold, obv 3betting any two and cbetting is ++++EV]. Because of this, your marginal broadway hands suddenly become v. strong postflop. Against a tight caller KJs on J84 facing a shove looks a less than pleasing prospect. Against some loose calling opponents who frequently make moves this is a double-fist-pump-and-do-a-little-dance call.

Against the opponent in the example, it's impossible to say whether 3betting here is good or not, I think his CO range is prob going to be something like 22+,A8s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,ATo+,KT o+,QJo. If he calls with his entire range, then 3betting KJs is prob ok. If he calls v. tight, 3betting it is bad imo. The discussion in the thread is good, but we're missing key opponent tendencies, which is vital to the preflop question here.

[corsakh]

KJs is a valueraise against my CO opening with a tag OTB.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
KJs is a valueraise against my CO opening with a tag OTB.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we were only 3betting because we were ahead of your Co opening range we would be 3betting like 19% of our hands which sounds a little excessive

[corsakh]

I don't see why not. I'm not gonna put my stack at risk and make plays from OOP without at least some sort of a hand, which won't happen much more often than one in 4.

Besides I don't 3bet this automatically, but perhaps 75% of the time.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont feel too good about 3betting AJs preflop, let alone KJs. Did I miss something where all of a sudden it became standard to 3bet mid-range crap?

I think a fold is fine preflop, and its what I would usually do, but a call is okay also. I would almost never 3bet KJs here unless I was battling the guy or had some reason to do so and I would rather have 72o than KJs tbh.

Flop raise is bad, I would just float or fold. Whats the deal with people never folding on this forum? Even CTS talks about raising his folding frequency in his latest blog. If you want to float, look to take it away when the spade hits or raise the river or something, but id rather just fold flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold pf? You realize you should be 3betting with a wider range in position than OOP right?

3bet>>>>call>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>fold.