suppose to fold if you only flop a pair?

[Bicycles_Biatch]

The J10 question got me thinking about suited connectors in general.

obviously we all know we aren't calling with J10, 89, or 67 suited looking to spike a 10, 8, or 7...

However, assuming we do [and said pair is top pair]... how many additional outs do you feel we need to have in order to justify calling against some serious flop action?

is our 2 pair draw enough to constitute calling 2 cold? 3 cold?

Is our 2 pair draw plus a back door flush and straight enough to call 2 cold? 3 cold?

Is our two pair + OE straight draw + back door flush draw enough to call 3 cold? 4 cold?

Just wanted to get some discussion going on how much heat you'll take when you flop a pair with draw with suited connectors.... this seems to be where I struggle (based on what I'm reading).

Sometimes you obviously flop what my friends and I refer to as the Jesus draw... something like a pair and an open ended straight flush draw... i think we are obviously seeing the river here.... but what about the following example.


25-50 game at HP in CA... tougher-tighter game than normal... I'm looking for a table change to stud BTW.

Anyways, TAG raises under the gun and 2 people call.

You're on the button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and expect one of the blinds to call.

Based on the level of play today... you give UTG credit for AK or better and you know the callers have stuff like mid pairs or suited aces... they ain't callin' with total crap today.

I call, BB calls, 5 to the flop.

Flop is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG bets, one limper folds, 2nd limper raises, two bets to you...

do you take heat here with TP, and two concealed back door draws?

Anyways, I call, blind folds, UTG calls.

Turn is a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

UTG checks, limper bets, I call, UTG raises, limper 3 bets... 2 bets back to us cold.

easy call? Fold as I'm probably up against a set and/or a pair and maybe a bigger flush draw? raise for value since in L.A. you can only go 4 bets and most likely I have 13 clean outs and definately will get called in two spots if I make my river straight or flush?

River is possibly the worse card or the best card in the deck for me... another 7.

UTG bets, limper calls... I ? call and pray? fold, I'm obviously beat? raise for value but fold to a 3 bet?

Anyways, this hand actually did occur and I've been meaning to get some feedback... but also, I think is shows the compounding problem that occurs from playing suited-connectors against pre-flop raisers.

Maybe yet another huge flaw in my game is making that first call on the flop... I don't know???