River decision in a big pot

[cowboy billy]

15-30 live full ring game, table is playing a little tighter than normal, 3-4 to flop on average, more TAG's than donkeys for a change

3 limpers, hero raises AJo on the button, blinds call, limpers call

6 players to flop for 12sb: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

everybody checks, hero checks behind

6 players to turn for 12sb: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

checked to a TAG in MP who bets, asian guy to my right calls, hero raises, folded to MP who calls, asian guy calls also

3 players to river for 12bb: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

TAG in MP checks, asian guy bets

hero... calls/folds?

no big reads on asian guy, he just sat down a couple orbits before, seems to be playing too loose pre flop, did see him make a river check/raise bluff with ace high that failed (river had paired the king on the flop which he obv tried to rep, but opponent held AK and opted to just call bc he was afraid the asian guy had a fh)

[flavio321]

you are getting 13:1 and since you don't have a read on the guy, you need to look him up and see wtf he was playing.

[cgrohman]

Insta call and expect to lose.

[88jayhawks]

not sure how much i like the raise pre flop. if 4 people are routinely seeing the flop, A-J doesn't play very well.

i'm sure a lot of people are gonna disagree with this. i like a raise to try and make the blinds fold but with all the limpers in front of you, the amount of money in the pot makes it to enticing for everyone to call.

i think i just call pre flop hoping to flop big because it looks like you are going to have to take A-J against half the table.

out of curiosity, where was this at?

[leo doc]

I'll preface this by saying that AJo and ATo are my least favorite hands to play against 3-5 limpers, even with position. And I'll tell you that I would "usually" raise OTB with the slight hope of folding one or both blinds. (Exception being if the table's ATC and almost always has 6 or 7 to the flop, then I sometimes flat call). But, the "best laid plans" usually don't work out- as they didn't in this hand for you. FWIW, I would have made the c-bet on the flop, tho. Any reason you didn't?

The way played, I'd call river and expect to lose. Only other option would be to raise river, but that seems spewy in the somewhat protected pot and asian guy's turn call.

[cgrohman]

2 limpers, this is a definite raise, 3 its closer. It also depends on how the blinds play.

[pohuist]

[ QUOTE ]
2 limpers, this is a definite raise, 3 its closer. It also depends on how the blinds play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, HEPFAP recomends a fold in MP after 1 limper, if you expect a couple more after you. This is only marginally better, as in multiway pots position becomes less important.
As played call and expect to lose. "You can't make money in limit hold'em by making huge laydowns on the river".

Flop check is correct IMO -- you're unlikely to win u/i, the majority will call the flop, and you don't want to make the pot big giving them proper odds whem drawing to 1 pair yourself.

[leo doc]

Actually, HEFAP, pg 29, says:

"It may also be correct to raise {first in or with callers to your right} with Group 4 hands AJ or KQ. The time to do so is when you think it is likely that your raise will:
1. Knock out most (if not all) of the players behind you.
2. Keep the pot short-handed."

Granted that these conditions don't necessarily apply after 3 limpers, but I did want to "clarify" what HEFAP had to say about AJ in MP.

[Toonces]

I think a raise is automatic on the button. Noone raised this hand, you are likely to have the best hand and have equity on the raise. I don't care if AJo is not best to play against 5 players, it's still well above 17% to go 6-handed.

In addition, you will probably get checked to if you miss the flop.

[pohuist]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, HEFAP, pg 29, says:

"It may also be correct to raise {first in or with callers to your right} with Group 4 hands AJ or KQ. The time to do so is when you think it is likely that your raise will:
1. Knock out most (if not all) of the players behind you.
2. Keep the pot short-handed."

Granted that these conditions don't necessarily apply after 3 limpers, but I did want to "clarify" what HEFAP had to say about AJ in MP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I refer you to p 162. There is a big difference b/w open-raising trying to steal the blinds and/or play against few people with random hands, AND playing AJo in multiway pot.
A lot of stuff in HEPFAP is contradictory, you have to take it very situation specific.