Something that's been bothering me from the Shooting Star WPT

[SossMan]

This hand came up on day 2.

I reraised a guy preflop and it was heads up to the flop.

Flop was J high and he bet into me. I called.

Turn was a blank and he bet and I raised him a large amount. I had ace high.

At this point in the tourney, this was a huge pot. Something like 100k or so in the middle by the time I put the raise in (avg stack was around 80k).

He sat and thought for a long time. After a couple minutes, he picked up his hand and held them up perpendicular to the table, facing him, but with his arms outstreched. Both his neighbors could easily see the hand, as could the rail behind him.

It's an action I've seen a million times before someone makes a big muck. If you've played live, you've seen it, too. He even looked over at his neighbor to his right and said, "I saw you fold this hand earlier". The neighbor just nodded.

He eventually put it back down and just called.

Is there anything I should have done at this point? Isn't this a dead hand?

I'm not sure from an ethical standpoint and from a poker standpoint what I should do.

Note that I'm not looking to shoot an angle here, but I also want it to be one person to a hand and I want to be protected in a big pot like this.

[KurtSF]

I'm no expert, but isn't showing your hand a no-no and kills it? I'll wait for the folks who know to chime in, but you might have a point here.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]


Is there anything I should have done at this point? Isn't this a dead hand?

I'm not sure from an ethical standpoint and from a poker standpoint what I should do.

Note that I'm not looking to shoot an angle here, but I also want it to be one person to a hand and I want to be protected in a big pot like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dead? WHY?

Did he actually ask his neighbor how to play the hand? Did his neighbor tell him how to play the hand?

Play the hand out. Then ask the player (or ask the dealer to tell the player) that his action in showing his hand to his neighbor and making a comment seemed a bit too close to asking for help in playing the hand and you don't think he should be doing it.

[KurtSF]

In a cash game OK, but isn't simply showing the hand a no-no in a tourney?

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
In a cash game OK, but isn't simply showing the hand a no-no in a tourney?

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't 'show the hand' as in turning it face up.
He held it up like reading a book. This apparently allowed his neighbors, who were not in the hand to see the cards. He did not flip them over 'to get a read'.
No way should the hand be dead for just that.
As I said, his comment about his neighbor laying the same hand down came very close to asking for advice.

[pig4bill]

Soss, you might cross-post in the Tournament Circuit forum. Matt posts there sometimes.

[bav]

No matter what, no matter nuthin' else, this is *NOT* a dead hand. NO way, no how. I swear I don't know where y'all keep getting this idea that random oopses during play result in dead hands. He can turn it face up and it's not a dead hand. He can tell you what it is. Only if he, like, throws his cards into the audience is it dead.

If the TD thinks that player adequately broke the rule about exposing cards, perhaps the TD will give him a 10 minute penalty away from the table. Not like that is going to be any problem for him at this stage, and it doesn't get you the pot.

[MicroBob]

It doesn't seem like an 'oops' to me.

He is intentionally showing his hand to others on his side of the table and is practically asking for advice.

His saying, "I saw you fold this hand earlier" and then getting a head-nod from the other player is him talking about his hand with another player and really seems to violate the 1-player-per-hand rule imo.

And it wasn't an accident either.
He's making sure his opponent can see his hand, and then is having a conversation (albeit a quick and pointless one) about it.

This doesn't seem much different from him showing his cards to his buddy and then asking, "What would you do?"
and then the buddy nodding (which could obviously mean anything, but the communication itself seems really inappropriate).

[bav]

[ QUOTE ]
His saying, "I saw you fold this hand earlier" and then getting a head-nod from the other player is him talking about his hand with another player and really seems to violate the 1-player-per-hand rule imo.

And it wasn't an accident either.
He's making sure his opponent can see his hand, and then is having a conversation (albeit a quick and pointless one) about it.

This doesn't seem much different from him showing his cards to his buddy and then asking, "What would you do?"
and then the buddy nodding (which could obviously mean anything, but the communication itself seems really inappropriate).

[/ QUOTE ]
I completely disagree that "I saw you fold this earlier" is collusion. That's a statement of fact. It's not "would you fold this here" or "do you think this is good?" He's saying "you laid this down earlier". Yep...that guy did indeed lay those two cards down earlier. So what? Basically you seem to be saying if someone exposes his cards and gets ANY reaction from any other player, that's collusion. No...somebody nodding in response to "you had these cards earlier" is not collusion.

Exposing cards is grounds for a penalty. Not for killing the hand. Never ever. If I intentionally expose my cards in a tough situation fully intending to accept the penalty, and someone at the table says "woa, dude, I'd call with those in an instant" I'm still not on the hook. I didn't ask for help, it was spontaneously given by someone who had no business doing so...not my fault.

Not a dead hand and it really isn't close.