A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds

[traz]

what?

[andy099]

I tend to 3 bet 9's and 10's always unless there has been a 3 bet already in which case i evaluate the personnel involved in pot. I though primarily play on the deep stacks tables (200bb) which i think varies play immensely. with only 100bbs people are more likely to 4 bet ak or raise all in your flop bet which unless you flop a set puts you in a uncomfortable spot. With 200bb's it isn't so simple for villain when i 3 bet, bet out flop and bet turn if board is favourable because they are playing for twice as much and i'm the one putting them to the decision. By simply calling in the blinds with 99 or 1010 is bad because you have no easy way of deducing the strength of their hand or yours( a fundamental problem of playing oop) Simply calling down with one overcard or no overcards is very read dependent on the villain in question and surely as you move up the stakes, opponents are going to be better in general and 3 barrel dangerous cards. Obviously you have to put into consideration the person opening the pot, calling is obviously better against someone who opens 5% of hands.

By 3 betting OOP you take the iniative in the pot and when you cbet the flop your opponent has to put in half or all his stack to find out where he is whereas you have only put in a small amount and going on reads you can decide whether to call all ins etc. 9's and 10's are going to be ahead of the range of almost every villain so even oop 3 betting imo is warranted. Also when playing OOP it is harder to disguise your hands so when you flop a set of 9's and 10's your are less likely to get payed of from a decent villain who hits tptk whereas when you 3 bet generally villain is getting all in when he hits tp/overpair and you hit a set. IMO by being the aggressor in the hand you put your opponent to making a decision, the times you will take down the pot with a cbet or flop a set/overpair(read dependednt) and stack your opponent will far outweigh the times you lose money by cbetting and him calling/raising and you having to fold. Apologies if this is rambled [censored]

Here's a pot that went down well for me when i 3 bet 99's

Full Tilt Poker, $0.15/$0.30 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $177.50
MP: $85.80
CO: $96.45
BTN: $60.85
Hero (SB): $58.35
BB: $63.90

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
2 folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $1.05</font>, BTN folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.55</font>, BB folds, CO calls $2.50

Flop: ($7.40) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $6</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $25.40</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $54.80 and is All-In</font>, CO calls $29.40

Turn: ($117) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($117) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $117 Pot ($3 Rake)
CO showed T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (King Queen high) and LOST (-$58.35 NET)
Hero showed 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Nines) and WON $114 (+$55.65 NET)

I think

[traz]

In that case, the 3bet is good because he called you with a bad hand. So go ahead and 3bet that guy.

That being said, the hand would have played out identically had you not 3bet...you see that right?

[ama0330]

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That being said, the hand would have played out identically had you not 3bet...you see that right?

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[Milky]

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What's relevant is his calling range...his opening range is pretty useless.

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This is so key. You 3bet w/99/TT only if 99/TT is ahead of his 3bet CALLING range. If he's only calling with TT+/AK then it's better just to call, as you're basically turning your hand (which has a lot of value) into a bluff.

The same goes for 3betting small/mid pocket pairs. I used to do this to blind steals but after talking through it with my coach (yay free coaching, thanks Luke) you're basically turning those hands into bluffs, when they have way too much value.

Your 3bet range should be pretty polarized between pure bluffs (54s-98s type hands) and TT+,AQs+ and should be adjusted based on how your opponent plays. If his opening range is wide but his 3bet CALLING range is tight, then you can add more bluffs to your 3bet range. If he's calling 3bets loose then you need to tighten up your bluffs and stick to value bets, but at the same time lower your 3bet standards (so include hands like 99/TT, AQ, KQ, sometimes even AJs/KJs. It all depends on their 3bet calling range).

[kroeliewoelie]

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what?

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I don't understand what you mean with this post, but if your not understanding mine, I'll explain further.

1) opening range is important. if villain opens only AA are you going to 3bet?
2) calling range is a subset of opening range, so assigning opening range does matter.
3) if villain doesn't float etc postflop and throws away his marginal holdings preflop, 3betting isn't profitable. he won't fold enough and against his calling/raising range we lose too often.
4) If villain starts doing fancy things like: call with 22 preflop or call with AQ postflop. we start to gain showdown equity. In those cases hand value becomes important. And because this will sometimes happen 99&gt;&gt;&gt;72o.
5) in the end I believe 3betting is justified by fold equity, metagame considerations, and showdown value against FPS players.

[traz]

All of your points deal with calling range. Every single one of them.

[andy099]

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In that case, the 3bet is good because he called you with a bad hand. So go ahead and 3bet that guy.

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Ya we both flop big hands but that being said against passive villains i will likely get two streets of value whereas by 3 betting preflop i have more money in the pot so villain more inclined to shove/ get all in on the flop.

Ya i missed the thing about villains 3 bet calling ranges. This is also important. If your 3 betting and they're calling with smaller pp's this is going to be a mistake mathematically(100bb) and at lower stakes you see more people call 3 bets with dominated hands.

[Quester]

This thread points out one of the biggest reasons PokerTracker needs 3-bet and call 3-bet as stats. I can't wait for PokerTracker 3 to come out. I'm always lost in this situation, so I default to 3-betting loose players with a high FCB% and just flat calling tough players, looking to hit a set, see a cheap showdown, or take it away from him on the turn.

[ama0330]

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What's relevant is his calling range...his opening range is pretty useless.

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This is so key. You 3bet w/99/TT only if 99/TT is ahead of his 3bet CALLING range. If he's only calling with TT+/AK then it's better just to call, as you're basically turning your hand (which has a lot of value) into a bluff.

The same goes for 3betting small/mid pocket pairs. I used to do this to blind steals but after talking through it with my coach (yay free coaching, thanks Luke) you're basically turning those hands into bluffs, when they have way too much value.

Your 3bet range should be pretty polarized between pure bluffs (54s-98s type hands) and TT+,AQs+ and should be adjusted based on how your opponent plays. If his opening range is wide but his 3bet CALLING range is tight, then you can add more bluffs to your 3bet range. If he's calling 3bets loose then you need to tighten up your bluffs and stick to value bets, but at the same time lower your 3bet standards (so include hands like 99/TT, AQ, KQ, sometimes even AJs/KJs. It all depends on their 3bet calling range).

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