AA: I flat his 3-bet OOP...flop kinda sucks.

[markuisis]

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How is KK not shoving here? If we rep only a queen by betting turn and river, we should be betting a lot more.

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If KK is happy to get it in...wouldn't he have bet flop? My line looks like Qx or air, so I'm not sure why he'd be shoving for value w/ our limited history.

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So what are you value betting against? Seems like any pair would bet the flop right? He can definitely check KK on this flop and I don't see why it's such an auto-bet.

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u say any pair pair bets flop but kk checks.... and i think a lot of pairs such as 10s up check this flop and then go for value on turn and river, betting flop with kings and being c/r sucks in this spot and ur unlikely to get 3 streets of value from hands u beat against competent players. R u saying y is hero auto-betting? if u r then id say that he expects to be looked up by kk, jj, 1010 and 99 a good portion of the time, not betting in heroes shoes is missing a lot of value against hands that just wanna showdown.

[markuisis]

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How is KK not shoving here? If we rep only a queen by betting turn and river, we should be betting a lot more.

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nice value bet there with kings getting called by nothing that beats us. it doesnt matter if we r ahead of a river betting range, only that we r ahead of his shove calling range, and also calling a shove hoping he has kk is combinatorically illogical.

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So you bet/fold JJ here? Just asking.

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yes prob if i expect villain to look me up with tens, nines and the occasional ak, im much more likely to bet aa though obv. dont mean to be rude btw.

[thac]

The thing is though, I don't see any pair playing the way he played it, maybe TT and below, so that leaves his air hands. Sometimes he has a queen, but if you're a thinking player and are bet/folding JJ here (I'm sure he knows this), why can't he shove AK or less? It'd be a bad bluff, but we rarely have a queen unless we call his 3-bet OOP with AQ or KQ and I don't think loos plays like that.

[markuisis]

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The thing is though, I don't see any pair playing the way he played it, maybe TT and below, so that leaves his air hands. Sometimes he has a queen, but if you're a thinking player and are bet/folding JJ here (I'm sure he knows this), why can't he shove AK or less? It'd be a bad bluff, but we rarely have a queen unless we call his 3-bet OOP with AQ or KQ and I don't think loos plays like that.

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Assuming sum1 is making a bad bluff readless is burning money IMO, especially since most hands he calls turn with he wants to showdown (even ak high sometimes). Hero can have aq, kq, 88, qq and i dont think its safe to assume most player's 3bet calling range at these stakes without many reads (a lot of ppl will also call with 2s here).

[thac]

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The thing is though, I don't see any pair playing the way he played it, maybe TT and below, so that leaves his air hands. Sometimes he has a queen, but if you're a thinking player and are bet/folding JJ here (I'm sure he knows this), why can't he shove AK or less? It'd be a bad bluff, but we rarely have a queen unless we call his 3-bet OOP with AQ or KQ and I don't think loos plays like that.

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Assuming sum1 is making a bad bluff readless is burning money IMO, especially since most hands he calls turn with he wants to showdown (even ak high sometimes). Hero can have aq, kq, 88, qq and i dont think its safe to assume most player's 3bet calling range at these stakes without many reads (a lot of ppl will also call with 2s here).

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I've played with loos (it wasn't often but it was enough I think) and he didn't call 3-bets light.

[loosbastard]

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unless we call his 3-bet OOP with AQ or KQ and I don't think loos plays like that.

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This is true...but villain couldn't know that. Although if he did, it would make bet/calling a lot better IMO because now my range really is polarized more towards TT/JJ/air. Given that I'm an unknown, he has to assume AQ/KQ is part of my range and should probably just call river w/ KK.

[markuisis]

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The thing is though, I don't see any pair playing the way he played it, maybe TT and below, so that leaves his air hands. Sometimes he has a queen, but if you're a thinking player and are bet/folding JJ here (I'm sure he knows this), why can't he shove AK or less? It'd be a bad bluff, but we rarely have a queen unless we call his 3-bet OOP with AQ or KQ and I don't think loos plays like that.

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Assuming sum1 is making a bad bluff readless is burning money IMO, especially since most hands he calls turn with he wants to showdown (even ak high sometimes). Hero can have aq, kq, 88, qq and i dont think its safe to assume most player's 3bet calling range at these stakes without many reads (a lot of ppl will also call with 2s here).

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I've played with loos (it wasn't often but it was enough I think) and he didn't call 3-bets light.

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i meant for villain to assume hero's 3bet calling range

[thac]

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unless we call his 3-bet OOP with AQ or KQ and I don't think loos plays like that.

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This is true...but villain couldn't know that. Although if he did, it would make bet/calling a lot better IMO because now my range really is polarized more towards TT/JJ/air.

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Yeah true, I gotta stop assuming [censored].

[loosbastard]

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Yeah true, I gotta stop assuming [censored].

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Seconded. God I spew so hard sometimes because of those (bad) assumptions.

[Casper05]

I think not 4-betting small here is a big mistake...He's been 3betting you constantly and has to know you're frustrated...4bet to something he thinks he can shove over, and hell sometimes he DOES have QQ+.