JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues

[Worm75]

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter


No real reads on CO, other then 16/14/3 over 60 hnds. The two shorties were the reason that I was at the table, but they have lost most of their stacks since I've been here.

I'll lay the hand out decision by decision, since this hand was pretty sick....

BTN: $25.30
SB: $48.10
BB: $18.55
Hero (UTG): $49.25
CO: $57.10

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $6.75</font>, BTN calls $6.75, SB folds, BB calls $6.25, Hero calls $4.75

Flop: ($27.25) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $11.80 and is All-In</font>, Hero???

[LiveNow]

calls....
Edit: if the CO starts moving chips around, then you're in trouble and you pitch the hand...

[yegon]

This sucks.

I think you have BB and probably also BTN beat. The question is what does CO do. I'd call and probably fold if CO shoves and call BTN's shove. I really don't know what I would do if CO just calls and an overcard hits on the turn. Even if an overcard does not hit I'd think we are beat more often then not if he calls.

[Khumalo]

All of your options seem problematic, as far as I can see. I almost want you to just fold here, which takes us back to pre-flop. Imagine that CO, who seems kinda nitty taggy, but only over a smallish sample, had 3 bet you without participation from the shorties, what would your response be? Call mostly for set value, partly to 'feel out' and hopefully beat a whiffed AK/AQs? Fold cause his range is basically QQ+? 4-bet (probably not)? It's a tough spot to be in in general OOP with JJ facing a tight player's typically narrow 3-bet range (at these limits.)

While I don't know for sure what I'd one-on-one vs CO if he 3-bet (maybe just pitch it pf, unless we were a little deeper), I'm almost certainly calling here pre-flop multiway, but only to try and flop a set. If I had better position, I could see what CO and BTN did when the BB shoves, and call if one or both fold. But here you don't have that luxury so I c/f non-J boards as soon as the action begins to build post-flop.

[yegon]

Yeah but can you really fold getting 4 to 1? I think the chance that CO has AK/AQ is bigger than the 20% we need to call.

[Khumalo]

I concede the weirdness of advocating a fold when we're getting 4 to 1, but I was unhappy with the reverse-implied odds scenario it was sucking us into. What if CO decides to peel with AK / smooth call with his QQ+, or senses the weakness of our call and adds AK to his QQ+ flop shoving range? We're either call-folding the flop too often or having to play a ton of horrible turn situations (in which we're praying for a J or two streets of check-check.)

(Plus we can't totally disregard BTN, who occasionally has something good here, unless his 3-bet cold-calling range is no better than his normal pf calling range, which can occur, but is unusual, and OP was vague on this matter.)

So I dunno about the 4 to 1 ...

[takingcontrol]

I smoothcall here, CO folds AK, AQ here and lets us know when he has a big pair. he wont bluff at the pot since it's protected and we can c/f the turn if he comes along.

[corsakh]

Ask youself why did you call preflop and flop is going to be sooooo easy.

[yegon]

we called pf for set value but would it not be a mistake to fold only to see CO fold, BTN calling with 88 and BB showing TT? Is this scenario that unrealistic? We only need the CO to fold, the other two are fish and can pay off with much worse than JJ.

What if BB only has 5$ - do we still fold? I think there has to be line at wich we change our decision from calling to folding I'm just not sure where it is 10 to 1, 5 to 1, 3 to 1?

[corsakh]

Do you see a set on the flop?