is this easy?

[sightless]

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that bet screams "don't call me".

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This bet screams a lot of things. Without proper reads we cant be sure we have the best hand here often enough in this spot.

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I also had a specific history with this guy.

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Well if you have a read that this guy might shove this flop very often with a hand that you beat why are you posting it here?

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I don't think you need much of a read on a player to rule out big big hands and any draws here.

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yes you do

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Given the size of the overbet, he's likely to have a really crappy hand that absolutely does not want to be called.

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Or he wants you to think that, while he has a monster. Or he is just showing AJ and has you dominated.

Folding here is correct because the pot is tiny, and you have top pair not so good kicker.

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Those of you who advocated a fold

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I think everyone is advocating a fold and no one is advocating a call

[Guruman]

responded to everything but the questions there sightless.

[Keitan]

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Over the past couple months of seriously retooling my game, I've learned something that applies to this hand: Your opponents aren't really as sophisticated as they constantly seem to be, and you don't really need to be asking questions like this.

Yes, he could be trying to steal a pot, or he could have a better ace than you and not like the fact that there are four opponents ready to suck out on him with all of those draws, or he could have a monster and be thinking that with that many people in the pot, someone just has to have an ace that they don't want to fold. But none of that is really important to your decision. What is important is this:

You are facing a decision for your whole stack while out of position with a mediocre hand and two players left to act after you do.

This means fold. Yes, Villain could be making a big error that could win you a whole buy-in. But if he will do it now, he'll do it again later and hopefully you will be in a position to capitalize on it. This is not that time.

Really, I've learned that the key to the micros is to just sit back, play it really simple, and wait for the donkeys to screw up when I'm way ahead.

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nice post

[IAGTTAYM]

Insta fold.

[Waingro]

Given the description in the op, I would call this. Seems like the type of player to make this play with QJ, KJ etc. I think we are way ahead most of the time. I wouldn´t get too hung up on the fact that we have AT here, and that tpgk usually is not a "good" hand.

[Guruman]

ok, this thread is getting off track here and I'm partly to blame for that, so let me try to correct it because I think that there's actually something interesting in here.

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Well if you have a read that this guy might shove this flop very often with a hand that you beat why are you posting it here?

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That’s at the end of the op, but I’ll address it again in a sec. To get to that:

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You are facing a decision for your whole stack while out of position with a mediocre hand and two players left to act after you do.

This means fold.

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You are facing a decision for your whole stack while out of position

When making decisions for stacks position becomes irrelevant because there will be no future actions. We all obv already know that.

with a mediocre hand

of course hand strength is not absolute, it’s relative. That absolute that I would be concerned with is hand robustness. For example, if I feel that I’m ahead but have a low pp then I’d still have to fold because of the myriad random ways that villain could outdraw me by catching a pair - even with a random unmade hand. With this hand though, when I’m ahead I’m unlikely to be outdrawn unless villain is specifically holding a big combo draw. If I estimate that he’s not likely to be holding a combo draw here, then my hand will hold up a lot when it’s best, which allows for fudge room when I’m wrong.

and two players left to act after you do

This is the interesting part and was the reason that I posted the hand initially.

Hypothetically, lets say I have a holecard cam on CO and can see that he’s holding Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. (essentially I have to estimate that he has a weak hand that’s not drawing to lots of outs to even consider making a call. The debate thus far has been on the validity of that estimation, but if we assume just for a moment that it is correct…)

Given my hand and that information, can I make the call with two players left to act behind? Are we counting on players behind having the good sense to fold AJ or :gasp: AK there? Given that I have to be very right on the relative strength of my hand to CO, how vulnerable is its to being called and beaten from behind? What if a flush draw decides to come along for the ride behind me and pad my decision making a little?

really that was the debate in my mind.

[gedanken]

this hand is really not all that exciting. Yes, it's a big mistake to pass up hugely +EV situations, but I don't think this is one (not having read your results yet).

Put villain on a range: A4, 44, KhJh, JhTh, other 2-heart and gutshot hands, bluffs. You're ahead of some of it, you're crushed by some of it. When people get into donkey mode, it's hard to tell what they're thinking. In the end, it's kind of a tossup. Keep in mind that someone going for a checkraise with AQ, 44, A4 or KhJh is calling behind you, and you're in deep trouble.

If you like tossups with your whole stack, and can reload to try again, go for it. But if he's really spewing, you can be patient, and get it all in when you've got him crushed for sure.

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The key to the micros is to just sit back, play it really simple, and wait for the donkeys to screw up when I'm way ahead.

[/ QUOTE ] Tape that to your monitor.

[KrazyMike]

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You are facing a decision for your whole stack while out of position with a mediocre hand and two players left to act after you do.

This means fold.

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You are facing a decision for your whole stack while out of position

When making decisions for stacks position becomes irrelevant because there will be no future actions. We all obv already know that.



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I'm a newbie so can you explain this to me? I would think going all in negates positional advantage on future streets but not the current street, since the later betters of this round have more information to evaluate the relative strength of their hands.

If you were in last position, but, with only one bettor, wouldn't you be in a much better situation? With people behind you, you have to have to worry about possibly beating more than one hand. Additionally, people behind you are getting better pot odds once you've entered. Like I said, I'm a newbie, so my reasoning may be completely flawed -please point out where, though, so I can try to learn from this.

[hendrix23]

I don't really understand the point in calling this. I don't see what the motive would be of this guy raising like this with crap. I've seen this a few times where someone bets $10 into a $.30 pot, while I have top pair, and it's really just not worth it with $0.10 in the pot imo. I can get my money in a lot better places then this.