live 1-2 hand I observed with verbal tell

[Guruman]

Here's a hand I saw played the other day that I'd like some thoughts on.

1-2 at ye ole indian casino where they take $1 out of the sb before dealing the cards for the bbj and max rake $5.

BB has been running super hot and taking down big pots with aggressive play and big hands. He's sitting on 1k.

Hero has been running a little poorly but is hanging in there and has about $170.

there are a few fish in behind and a reasonable but not spectacular player on the button. Button has about $300 and is a pretty young player who hasn't really been making waves.



[/ QUOTE ]
Hero finds TT and limps utg. Three more limpers follow (including the button), sb limps and bb checks.

Flop comes down K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB bets out $10, which is around the size of the pot. This is a typical sized bet for him. Hero minraises to $20, a few people fold and button calls. BB deliberates a bit and then folds. Before the dealer burns the next card button says 'no spade.' This is the first time button has spoken during a hand, and hero interpreted this to likely mean that villain is actually on a flush draw. Its an obvious reverse tell, but this was a very young player and may still have an undeveloped game in that respect.

At this point the pot is around $60 and effective stacks are $110.

The turn is a low blank and hero bets out $50. Button thinks for a short moment and calls.

The river is the 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero should...

[any thoughts would be appreciated. Please don't offer alternate lines without reasoning behind them. thx!]

[osh]

It's either valuebet/bluff to look like it around 50 or check/fold. I think so.

[SABR42]

Raise pf.

Don't minraise the flop.

Shove river.

[AlexB182]

Def raise flop more, if you raise to say 40 or 50 and BB calls you can shove a blank turn card.
The tell: I guess your interpretation was right, as Caro taught as: most of the time, they say the opposite of what they really mean...

[KurtSF]

I really don't care what he does on the river since he massacred preflop and the flop. Raise preflop. Pot the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
bet 1/4 of his stack, which is about 1/4 pot

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, note your description of the stack sizes changes throughout your description of the hand. According to your description preflop (Hero hanging in with $170) he has $90 left on the river. According to your description before the turn (pot is $60 stacks are $110) hero has only $60 remaining on the river. And according to your answer key (1/4 pot is 1/4 stack) he has $160 left in his stack?

It may not seem like a big deal, but stacksize is the key to answering this question. You see, for each bet that went on on a previous street you were at an equity advantage (if our assumption is correct, you have the best hand and he needs to catch up, which I agree with). So on the flop $20 went in from each player when you were say a 70% favorite. You "own" 70% of his $20 and 70% of your $20, or $28. Congratulations, you just "made" $8. (I'm kinda oversimplifying the math, but anyway) so on the turn ($50 bets you're 85% to win) you just "made" $35. So over the play of the hand you've "made" $43.

So if, on the river, you check and he bets $40, you can call that all day and all night and the play of the hand is still +EV. (Of course, if you're 100% sure he has the flush you shouldn't put a cent more into the pot and just check/fold, but that's not the case. So in NO case that you described (stacks on the river either $60, $90, or $160 depending on the version of the hand history) is it OK to get stacks in in. If you think he actually doesn't have the flush 1 in 3 times AND will bluff it AND you have $60 stacks you can check and call. But if your stack is larger or if BOTH the other scenarios aren't also true, your best line on the river is to check and fold.

Seems a shame, eh? That's why everyone is going to say they want Hero to get more money in preflop and on the flop. Even if he just makes a reasonable raise on the flop to $40, then the pot will be ~$100 on the turn and you can bet like $80. So now you have somewhere around $0-$100 left on the river (depending on which version of the HH is correct) and its a lot less important (possibly meaningless) what you do now....

As opposed to playing it the way Hero played it and trying to choose the best from a set of bad decisions.

[canvasbck]

Raise pre, pot flop, shove blank turn, reload when he calls and hits flush on river. Rinse, repeat.

[onoble]

Calling can be ok preflop.

FLop you make it like $40