When do or should customs trump law?

Blarg · #1 07-11-2007, 02:45 PM

A story I saw at yahoo.com reminded me of an issue that is very hard to handle without being accused of some sort of "ism" -- what do you do when people's customs and beliefs clash with the law of their country?

This can be especially tricky when the alleged "perp" is from another country, and it could at least be thrown out there that maybe they didn't know some of the laws they're being judged under. Tricky at best, and not necessarily relevant, because ignorance is commonly held to be no excuse regarding law.

Examples I've read about:

1. Cambodian guys, 20's, given a German shepherd puppy as a present by a neighbor. They cave in its head and eat it. Against American law.

2. Koreans in L.A. think a woman being listless and unhappy, and not particularly respectful of her husband, means demonic infestation. They subject her to a harrowing weekend of shouting, rolling her up in sheets, sitting and standing on her chest, finally suffocating her by having multiple members of the husband's family standing on her chest in an attempt to drive out the demons. This breaks any number of American laws.

3. Hmongs in California have a big problem with this type of thing: 20-ish Hmong man decides he wants to marry a 14-year-old Hmong girl. So in keeping with tradition, he kidnaps her, against her will, and rapes her and keeps her locked up to make her his wife. Against American law, clearly.

Results: 1. Dog boys not charged; 2. minor sentences for the religious chest stompers; 3. No charges are brought against kidnapping rapist.

And now for the yahoo story:

Female circumcision on the rise in Britain

Europe has had to deal with Muslims with the veil problem, as have New York cops with Orthodox Jewish females, who are not allowed to touch tickets the officers give them, don't want to be photographed for licenses, etc.

How fair do you think it is that laws be bent or changed based on the nationalities, race, or ethnicity of the person they are being applied to, and how serious a problem do you think this is here and will become, here in America and elsewhere?

Or just any part of that ...

MrWookie · #2 07-11-2007, 02:54 PM

As a first approximation, I'm much more willing to be lenient and understanding with traditions and religious customs that don't harm people. I can understand killing the dog, and I'd be willing to negotiate with Orthodox Jewish leaders to come up with an acceptable solution for giving the Jewish females tickets. I'm not familiar enough with the Jewish laws on this to suggest one, though, or to even really know what the law is. When it comes to the kidnapping racist, I think he should go to prison.

4_2_it · #3 07-11-2007, 03:06 PM

I know this will sound trollish, but the older I get the more disgusted I become at how political correctness is used as a defense by those who either break the law or decide the law should not apply to them.

If raping and killing women is allowed in your homeland, then move back there to do it. If you do not need a picture driver's license to drive in your homeland, then move back there if you wish to drive a motor vehicle.

Most basic laws are not hard to follow. I base this statement on the fact that most everyone has no problem following them on a daily basis.

As for the OP, killing the dog is sad, but I can't see more than a fine or warning being necessary. As for the exorcists, if they did this without the victim's consent, then manslaughter should be the charge. The guy who kidnapped the 14 year old should be sent to prison for many, many years.

daveT · #4 07-11-2007, 03:08 PM

The mutalation has always disturbed me. When we invaded Iraq for freeing the oppressed. I told many people that women were treated with more respect their than many other countries.

As for the rest. Well, if I throw a candy wrapper on the ground in Singapore, I am going to jail. If I carry a half ounce of marijuana in China, I am going to jail. If I give a thumbs up to a Mid Easterner, I can expect to get thumped in the head.

I don't even live in these countries, but I do know some of the laws. Yes, even until 50 years ago, "human rights" in America did not neccesarily include women and minorities. But it is logical that when you see it on the news that such and such went to prison for abducting/ beating/ killing, then the law is pretty much in your face. I don't buy the ignorance excuse.

As for the Jewish women. I would ask them if they prefer it that we all live like we live in Isreal and beat them whenever we please, and not allow them to sing, etc....

You can't have it both ways.

Dominic · #5 07-11-2007, 03:39 PM

jesus christ.

i think all of them should've been prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

when you move to another country you accept its laws. Period.

Runkmud · #6 07-11-2007, 03:44 PM

It's not unreasonable to expect someone to be aware of the laws of the country they are visiting or residing in. Ignorance of the law has never been a viable defense, nor should it be. If you choose the US or any country for that matter as your residence, you're required to follow the rules. Justice should be color/gender/religious persuasion blind, and delivered equally to all.

MrWookie · #7 07-11-2007, 03:46 PM

To a degree, though, Dom, it's not just their old laws in conflict with ours. It's our own laws in conflict with each other. Our first amendment guarantees freedom of religion, so how that resolves with religions whose practices are contrary to our other laws is not always clear.

Shadowrun · #8 07-11-2007, 04:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The mutalation has always disturbed me. When we invaded Iraq for freeing the oppressed. I told many people that women were treated with more respect their than many other countries.

As for the rest. Well, if I throw a candy wrapper on the ground in Singapore, I am going to jail. If I carry a half ounce of marijuana in China, I am going to jail. If I give a thumbs up to a Mid Easterner, I can expect to get thumped in the head.

I don't even live in these countries, but I do know some of the laws. Yes, even until 50 years ago, "human rights" in America did not neccesarily include women and minorities. But it is logical that when you see it on the news that such and such went to prison for abducting/ beating/ killing, then the law is pretty much in your face. I don't buy the ignorance excuse.

As for the Jewish women. I would ask them if they prefer it that we all live like we live in Isreal and beat them whenever we please, and not allow them to sing, etc....

You can't have it both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly are you talking about?

adrockuk · #9 07-12-2007, 03:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

As for the Jewish women. I would ask them if they prefer it that we all live like we live in Isreal and beat them whenever we please, and not allow them to sing, etc....

You can't have it both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly are you talking about?

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean you can't? I'll have to find somewhere else to take the girlfriend on holiday. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

AnActualGirl · #10 07-12-2007, 11:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
To a degree, though, Dom, it's not just their old laws in conflict with ours. It's our own laws in conflict with each other. Our first amendment guarantees freedom of religion, so how that resolves with religions whose practices are contrary to our other laws is not always clear.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems pretty clear that all the amendments that guarantee personal freedom - of religion, speech, etc. - are limited to the extent that your right to freedom ends when your actions harm others. You can't publish disparaging lies about a person without being charged with slander, and you can't become a serial killer because killing people makes you happy and you have the freedom to persue your own happiness. The defense of "in my religion, it is ok to kill people for these reasons" is no more valid than a defense of "I personally decided it's ok to kill these people, don't worry about it".

I don't buy the ignorance thing either.