Liberty Dollar office raided

[pvn]

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Your error here is in assuming I think Liberty Dollar did anything wrong. I don't. However, I also do believe that if the FBI feels the need to investigate the actions of the Liberty Dollar people, the field agents who served the search warrants aren't "evil", they're merely doing their jobs. Anyone who can consider serving search warrants even close to equal to Nazi's killing people needs a head exam.

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So it's OK to bust someone's door down and take their stuff if you get paid to do it?

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Who does this?

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You just said they're "merely doing their jobs." They get paid for it, so it's OK? Yes or no.

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Lollerskates at all of the ridiculousness in this thread, with a special achievement in ridiculousness award to you, pvn. Only an idiot believes that a legally executed search warrant = some kind of armed theft, and only an idiot thinks that agents acting under such a warrant in the United States = Nazi officers committing crimes against humanity.

Thanks for the laughs, though.

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Please cite a nazi comparison I've used.

[AlexM]

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You can have laws without government.

You can have agencies without government.

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Yeah, I´m gonna tap my shoes and wish to get home to Kansas. I used to be libertarian, but now Im ashamed when I see what kind of lunatics who really make out the libertarian people.

I honestly admire Ron Paul on some of hes points, but hes following scares me more than the Waco-crowd

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He's not a libertarian, he's an anarchist. I'm a libertarian.

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Anarchists are libertarians too!

[vhawk01]

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If I walk into a bank, hand the teller a note, and she gives me a bag full of money, would you say that no force was used? Would you say the money is now mine fair and square, she voluntarily gave it to me?

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Do you think that civilians and law enforcement should be equal when it comes to legally using force or threat of force?

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You're [censored] right I do. All men are created equal. Government agents are not some morally distinct class, with special dispensation to do things that are immoral for commoners.


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Not morallydistinct, but distinct in the way that the system supported by the people beleive that an agency should be able to use force to enforce the laws of the system.

Are you opposed to democracy? Think that the system approved by the vast majority of the citizens of the US shuld not be in place? Has there ever been any leading politician in the US (from 1700-till now) that has agreed with your sentiment?

Think it is smart to make assumptions based on feelings that you and hardly anyone else share, and ignore what 95% of other people feel?

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LOL this post is really just a tour de force, Bedriveter, thank you for this.

[AlexM]

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Another question would it have been morally acceptable for me personally to hire some people off the street to go and do exactly what those agents did?

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Sure, people hire private agents to do seizure all the time, it's called repossession. As long as it's legally done, I have no issue.

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And if the laws say it's ok for anyone to do it to anyone for any reason?

[vhawk01]

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Do you think that civilians and law enforcement should be equal when it comes to legally using force or threat of force?

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You're [censored] right I do. All men are created equal. Government agents are not some morally distinct class, with special dispensation to do things that are immoral for commoners.


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I agree with this, with all of my heart. The reason we're arguing here is that he disagrees with the basis for the raid, so therefore it's "immoral". I've come into contact with child molesters who certainly felt no moral issues arose from their behavior, and that it was just a harmless activity on their part.

Remember, if we don't enforce what you don't like because you think it's immoral, someone somewhere doesn't think raping your six year old daughter is immoral. Either both laws can be enforced, or neither.

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No. You started off this argument GRANTING that the actual raid and the order was immoral, but that the guys who were carrying it out were not immoral because they were just doing their job. If all you wanted to do was argue about whether the raid itself was wrong or immoral you didnt need to waste a dozen posts talking about guys just doing their job. They should be commended for just doing their job if the raid was right and moral and good.

You've clearly switched tacks because you realized you were fighting a losing battle.

[vhawk01]

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I would just like to say that all those who participated in this raid are doing their job, and they deserve . . . their paychecks in federal reserve notes.

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Yeah I always wonder why people are always so mad at Hitmen I mean they're just doing their job amirite?

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Because it's exactly the same thing, right? Wow, people that think like this truly make me begin to rethink my stance on gun rights. Its scary to think that you, and people that think like you, might actually gun down some highway patrolman for "infringing on your liberties" by asking to see your drivers license during a traffic stop.

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Can you take five seconds to consider the chain of events that is nearly certain to occur here that would allow someone to justly shoot someone to defend themselves? Its certainly not

"Hey can I see your licen...BANG!!"

There are a few steps in between, like me refusing and him kidnapping and holding me against my will, possibly even threatening me with deadly force.

[AlexM]

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Think it is smart to make assumptions based on feelings that you and hardly anyone else share, and ignore what 95% of other people feel?

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No ACist is ignoring the desires of 95%. We completely respect the desires of those 95% to do whatever the hell they want just so long as they leave us out of it. The problem is that they refuse to leave us out of it.

[Woolygimp]

Just in case you guys didn't see it the first time.

<font color="red"> In a federal seizure warrant given to the AP by von NotHaus, federal agents allege the money and other properties seized in the raid were linked to money laundering, mail fraud and wire fraud. </font>

The FBI were obviously raiding the headquarters because of an executive order from George W. Bush demanding an effective end to private monetization to combat the declining dollar. /sarcasm.

Idiots.

[vhawk01]

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Your error here is in assuming I think Liberty Dollar did anything wrong. I don't. However, I also do believe that if the FBI feels the need to investigate the actions of the Liberty Dollar people, the field agents who served the search warrants aren't "evil", they're merely doing their jobs. Anyone who can consider serving search warrants even close to equal to Nazi's killing people needs a head exam.

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So it's OK to bust someone's door down and take their stuff if you get paid to do it?

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Who does this?

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You just said they're "merely doing their jobs." They get paid for it, so it's OK? Yes or no.

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Lollerskates at all of the ridiculousness in this thread, with a special achievement in ridiculousness award to you, pvn. Only an idiot believes that a legally executed search warrant = some kind of armed theft, and only an idiot thinks that agents acting under such a warrant in the United States = Nazi officers committing crimes against humanity.

Thanks for the laughs, though.

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You people are amazing to me. You analogyphobes. Its honestly shocking that you dont get called on this ridiculous laziness and dishonesty more often. Do you people even get the POINT OF ANALOGIES? Yes, in every single analogy, some aspects will be different. Sometimes these differences are even important, and could even invalidate the analogy. But just because you are clever enough to notice that one part of the analogy is has more vowels in it than the other part, or one part is on a grander scale than the other part, doesnt justify this childish dismissal of all analogies. Analogies serve the purpose of illuminating similarities and differences between two different things, and relating an unclear situation to one which is more clear to provide information.

Rather than say "ZOMG THESE GUYS ARENT NAZIS AMIRITE?" why dont you point out the parts of the analogy that are so fundamentally different that it invalidates the entire thing. So, you could say "These guys were seizing property, the Nazis were rounding people up for concentration camps AND THIS IS A FUNDAMENTALLY IMPORTANT DISTINCTION BECAUSE..." The bolded part there is the part that you guys never do. You say the first part with an exasperated tone or maybe some exclamation points, and think you've accomplished something. Its sloppy and its lazy. Somehow, its also effective. God knows why. No one is denying there are differences. They may or may not be material differences. Why dont you explain why they are?

[vhawk01]

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Just in case you guys didn't see it the first time.

<font color="red"> In a federal seizure warrant given to the AP by von NotHaus, federal agents allege the money and other properties seized in the raid were linked to money laundering, mail fraud and wire fraud. </font>

The FBI were obviously raiding the headquarters because of an executive order from George W. Bush demanding an effective end to private monetization to combat the declining dollar. /sarcasm.

Idiots.

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Thats pretty quickly become no longer the point of the thread. But thanks anyway.