NLTRN $11 - Two huge draws (plz gimme axn in this thread...

[bbbushu]

... so i don't hafta post any more hands like this.)

***Hand A***

PokerStars Game #11986798216: Tournament #60829035, $11.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level II (15/30) - 2007/09/10 - 20:16:12 (ET)
Table '60829035 1' 2-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Kelwood (1315 in chips)
Seat 2: babybupkr (1685 in chips)
Kelwood: posts small blind 15
babybupkr: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to babybupkr [A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]
Kelwood: raises 90 to 120
babybupkr: calls 90
*** FLOP *** [6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]
babybupkr: checks
Kelwood: bets 150
babybupkr: raises 400 to 550
Kelwood: raises 645 to 1195 and is all-in
babybupkr: calls 645

thoughts on this flop line and alternate (better) lines.


***Hand B***

PokerStars Game #11987249687: Tournament #60831855, $11.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2007/09/10 - 20:41:26 (ET)
Table '60831855 1' 2-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: babybupkr (1490 in chips)
Seat 2: lucas800 (1510 in chips)
lucas800: posts small blind 10
babybupkr: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to babybupkr [K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
lucas800: calls 10
babybupkr: raises 60 to 80
lucas800: calls 60

pot: 160

*** FLOP *** [J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
babybupkr: bets 120
lucas800: calls 120

pot: 300

*** TURN *** [9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]
babybupkr: checks
lucas800: bets 360
babybupkr: calls 360

pot: 1020

*** RIVER *** [8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
babybupkr: bets 930 and is all-in

thoughts on turn and river

holla,
martin

[derosnec]

hand 1: 3bet pf; flop is good (probably 15 outs, maybe a little less; with pot size easy call of push)

hand 2: bet turn since 9 likely didn't help his hand (lot of straight draws: QT, T7, T8, etc. sometimes you're crushed, most often you'll pick it up on the turn, if not and you face shove, you'll have a zillion outs anyway; again pot size on turn means you will have to call)

[Insane_Steve]

1: Is villain raising button a lot? If so, I 3-bet to about 350 here. raising to 4x is very exploitable if you open up your 3-bet range a bit, though I am 3-betting this hand a decent amount of the time against most opponents anyways.

As for the flop, your line is fine, I don't mind getting it in here at all most of the time.

2: Turn is either a shove or fold in my opinion if you check, you likely have 12 outs here (maybe even 0) and aren't getting the odds to flat the turn. Maybe lead out for a smallish amount if you don't think villain can sniff out a weaker hand and will raise? As played river shove is fine, a lot of 9X hands are scared of the river and won't bet but will call a shove.

[bbbushu]

oops - i definitely usually 3 bet that AJ preflop but this was villain's first raise aside from one min-raise.

[bbbushu]

one more thing - i was in a weird spot w the AJ[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] bc i didn't think a check/raise or donk would fold any better hands - normally when you have a draw that strong the board is such that some smaller pairs or UI overs might fold but i expect to get at least called by AK and AQ on this board (if this is not how the games play higher, that's one thing, but i'm sure that a lot of 11's players will make that peel and maybe shove).

that said i don't think we have the "best hand" very often (while our draws do give us a lot of equity almost no matter what villain has) and i don't think we have much, if any, fold equity with a hand that we're not beating.

[derosnec]

once you c/r and have put almost 1/2 of effective stacks in the pot, the call is mandatory. you usually have 40 to 45% equity here. against this strong range, your equity is 46%: 66+,22,KdQd. Add in AK/AQ and it doesn't change.

also, folding better hands shouldn't be a concern here. you are +EV against most hands in his range and should be looking to get the money in on the flop. and before he 3bets your CR, you have no idea if he will fold or not. it's a flop that didn't hit many hands (Ax, broadways), so you should pick it up a decent % of time with a c/r and can't just just say that we have little FE. yes you don't have it with a hand you're not beating, but that's always the case with a CR. if he's raising preflop with, say, the top 15% of hands, only the top 4% of hands will like that flop (or about 25% of the hands he raises with). so even if you have total junk, you can c/r him profitably here (unless he's the type that pushes his unpaired overcards).

[bbbushu]

derosnec,

i know that my call is mandatory and i know i'm in fine shape against villain's range - my real question was whether my line is okay (e.g. check/raise is a good first step, the size of my check/raise is good, etc).

your argument about how little of his range hits the flop is very intriguing - i dont spend near enough time tinkering with pokerstove and stuff, obv [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

ty for your help,
bbbushu

[daveT]

On these flops vs one pair, you are a 60% favorite. Shoving is fine, no matter what the pot.

Hand two, I like cr on the river.

[ghettointlectual]

In hand 1 I think your opponent has a 7 maybe a 6 if he is really loose and weaker flush draw or maybe a straight draw. I think most of the time those are the hands you will be facing so you have enough equity

In hand 2 I would lead the turn for 150 when you check call and then go all in when the flush comes its pretty obvious you were drawing the flush and only the most careless opponent will call with tp here, a regular calling station might call with a 9 and then curse you out in chat.
So I prefer a half pot bet on turn and 1/2 to 2/3 psb on river.

[Dromar]

1. I think you took the correct line here.

2. As played, river is fine, but I would have liked to see a bet on the turn rather than a c/c.